Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:52 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:10 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:32 pm
Posts: 3173
Location: Darlington, Pennsylvania
LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Colin21 wrote:
I really don't really think Ryann is off by having our system ranked 14th. I have it ranked 15th and i think one or two others said 14th also.

I don't disagree with the mid-range ranking; what I disagree with is the patently false notion that the Pirates' farm system hasn't improved dramatically post-Littlefield, and is set up to continue to do so.


Oh yeah no doubt in my mind has it improved. I don't think Littlefield even knew we had a farm system. I also think we keep improving it, but the mid-level rating i gave it is because we called up some high ranked guys already and we have replaced them in the minors, but not on the same level they were at. I don't know if there is any team in baseball that could promote 5-10 players from AAA and think that team is going to be as good as it was before.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7288
Its funny Ryann says they're the 15th best minor league system, yet talks bad about it because they all have losing records...

And Steve being mad, because with Littlefield the Minors were winners, yet no major talent came from that winning...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:00 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Springfield, IL
The stupidity on this board continues to amaze me...the only reason why the minor league teams were winning under the previous regime is because guys were 2-3 years older than the average age in their respective leagues. Of course your going to win when you load a team up with six year free agents that have NO SHOT at getting to the major leagues.

The sad thing is, the people who are making this ridiculous argument are slowly becoming the majority of the Pittsburgh fans.

SAD.. When this team does start winning (and I am on record as saying this team contends for a league championship in 2011), the morons who are bitching about a plan that has been historically perfect will be "leading the cheers."

Ryann.. hate to break it to you kid.. but there's a reason why you and some of the other idiots spewing your unintellegent baseball garble don't have a job in this game..

But then again, what do I know.. I mean, I'm only talking with scouts, farm directors, Assistant GM's and GM's every year..


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:09 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6294
I agree curve, you cannot take a myopic view of the situation. This team was so depleted in the minor leagues that this was just about the only strategy to bring the franchise back to health. You have to look at the big picture and some fans just can't do this for any number of reasons. It is sad that the major league team has been allowed to get to the point where the fans are consumed with its recent past but that is a fact for many of them. And you are correct that thes fans will be right back on the wagon when the team has some success but that is ok too. When this team wins again, PNC Pard will be a magical place. One as exciting as any in the league.
Stay thirsty my friends.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:22 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Springfield, IL
Believe me, I LONG for the day when fans have to purchase their tickets in advance to see the Pirates play.. that day is coming..and its a heck of alot sooner than people think..


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:00 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:12 am
Posts: 758
BBF
Here is the 09 payrolls..look at teams in the Pirates division

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb
Explain the markets like the Brewers, Reds and Cardinals.


Not saying having a 70 mil patroll is the answer, but the Nutting family has had an ever increasing influence on the budget of this team and the one constant with the losing has been cheapness and trading proven vets for cost cutting.
Maybe the new GMs plan will work...but that wont be known for a while. Meanwhile the team blows as usual.

You and others like you will support the Pirates no matter what... so does it really matter what they do?

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
estrago wrote:
BBF
Here is the 09 payrolls..look at teams in the Pirates division

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb
Explain the markets like the Brewers, Reds and Cardinals.


Not saying having a 70 mil patroll is the answer, but the Nutting family has had an ever increasing influence on the budget of this team and the one constant with the losing has been cheapness and trading proven vets for cost cutting.
Maybe the new GMs plan will work...but that wont be known for a while. Meanwhile the team blows as usual.

You and others like you will support the Pirates no matter what... so does it really matter what they do?

That's not the call of the question. BBF was asking if people had an idea of how to build a winner with this team that did not involve building up the minor league system, and BBF granted such people a budget of $80M. Saying that the Pirates should just spend more money does not address HOW that money should be spent or whether it is even WISE to spend such money.

If you're going to respond to this thread, then answer the question. Blathering on about how we are apparently lemmings that follow the team wherever it goes is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:39 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:26 pm
Posts: 3006
estrago wrote:
BBF
Here is the 09 payrolls..look at teams in the Pirates division

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb
Explain the markets like the Brewers, Reds and Cardinals.


Not saying having a 70 mil patroll is the answer, but the Nutting family has had an ever increasing influence on the budget of this team and the one constant with the losing has been cheapness and trading proven vets for cost cutting.
Maybe the new GMs plan will work...but that wont be known for a while. Meanwhile the team blows as usual.

You and others like you will support the Pirates no matter what... so does it really matter what they do?


BH-

I'm not denying that the Pirates couldn't be spending more money. In fact, I'm suggesting they spend as much as $80 mil in this hypothetical scenario, which puts them on par with teams like the Brewers, Reds, and Cardinals. I am suggesting that spending $80 mil without first improving the farm won't matter, period. So what I want to know is how people think will we win- even on that budget- without first building the farm system. So, since you know everything about business, why don't you enlighten us. You have the numbers for avg salaries in arbitration and free agency, so show us how it works. I've given you every benefit to that $80 mil payroll so that you don't need to worry about salaries of other guys on the 40 man, deferred monies, bonuses, etc. Demonstrate to us how you will obtain 25 talented players without a strong farm system.

Or, better yet, why don't you show us which major league teams have competed on a $70-80 mil payroll without the use of a strong farm system.

I'll wait.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:03 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:12 am
Posts: 758
not saying this is the way the Pirates should rebuild, but this was an owner who was willing to take the risk....something the Nuttings will never do,,,,now read how a pathetic team was rebuilt without an overhaul of the minors....thanks for waiting.....keep supporting Mr no risk Nutting.

Rebuilding the franchise (2004–05)

2004
Under Dombrowski, the Tigers demonstrated a willingness to sign marquee free agents. In 2004, the team signed or traded for several talented but high-risk veterans, such as Iván Rodríguez, Ugueth Urbina, Rondell White and Carlos Guillén, and the gamble paid off. The 2004 Tigers finished 72–90, a 29-game improvement over the previous season, and the largest improvement in the American League since Baltimore's 33-game improvement from 1988 to 1989. However, the team was still sub-.500.


2005
Prior to the 2005 season, the Tigers spent a large sum for two prized free agents, Magglio Ordóñez and Troy Percival. On June 8, 2005, the Tigers traded pitcher Ugueth Urbina and infielder Ramon Martinez to the Philadelphia Phillies for Plácido Polanco (and later signed him for 4 years). The Tigers stayed on the fringes of contention for the American League wild card for the first four months of the season, but then faded badly, finishing 71–91. The collapse was perceived as being due both to injuries and to a lack of player unity; Rodriguez in particular was disgruntled, taking a leave of absence during the season to deal with a difficult divorce. Trammell, though popular with the fans, took part of the blame for the poor clubhouse atmosphere and lack of continued improvement, and he was fired at the end of the season.

A highlight of the 2005 campaign was Detroit's hosting of the Major League Baseball All-Star Game, its first since 1971. In the Home Run Derby, Rodriguez finished second, losing to the Phillies' Bobby Abreu.

In October 2005, Jim Leyland, who managed Dombrowski's 1997 World Series-winning Marlins club, replaced Trammell as manager; two months later, in response to Troy Percival's '05 arm problems, closer Todd Jones, who had spent five seasons in Detroit (1997–2001), signed a two-year deal with the Tigers. Veteran left-hander Kenny Rogers also joined the Tigers from Texas in late 2005. These offseason additions set the stage for the resurgence of "Tiger Fever" in Detroit and its environs the following year.


The return of the Tigers (2006 American League Championship)
Main article: 2006 Detroit Tigers season
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Detroit_Tigers_season

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:27 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:26 pm
Posts: 3006
Close, BH. In fact I expected someone to cite the 2006 Tigers a lot sooner. A fair point as they spent around $80 mil after signing some key free agents.

Of course, they did have a certain ROY pitcher play a big role. And in addition to Verlander, they also had Zumaya (another rookie), Robertson, and Bonderman make solid contributions. So in fact they DID rely on a farm system.

Further, they aren't exactly a model for maintaining a successful franchise on an $80 mil payroll. They took that risk with the understanding that $80 mil wasn't a "cap" for them, as it likely is for the Pirates. The best thing that ever happened to the Tigers was a salary cap in the NHL. Forced Mr. Little Caesars to start spending his money in baseball.

So yeah, that would be one way to do it, so long as you are willing to have a Florida Marlins-type firesale the next year to keep your payroll at $80 mil, since there is no evidence that we could spend more than that in subsequent years to afford all they players we sign for that one year run.

Myself, I'd rather build a model that would yield sustained success within our budget.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:43 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
BBf, do not forget Curtis Granderson, who is an excellent CF.

Further, the trade for Carlos Guillen is the exact type of trade that Neal Huntington would do. The Lastings Milledge trade reminds me of the Carlos Guillen trade, in that Dombrowski took advantage of an inept Seattle franchise the same way NH took advantage of an inept Nationals franchise.

Oh, and lastly, the Tigers are losing some serious money this year. The fall of GM and Chrysler is going to put a real hurt on the Tigers' revenue stream. It's going to be tough for them to cover their $115M payroll this year.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:49 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:26 pm
Posts: 3006
Willton wrote:
BBf, do not forget Curtis Granderson, who is an excellent CF.

Further, the trade for Carlos Guillen is the exact type of trade that Neal Huntington would do. The Lastings Milledge trade reminds me of the Carlos Guillen trade, in that Dombrowski took advantage of an inept Seattle franchise the same way NH took advantage of an inept Nationals franchise.


Correct...meant to include Granderson, hadn't thought about the Guillen trade.

But the point BH makes is a fair one. We could have kept Bay, spent $30 mil on free agents, and tried to win this year, gambling on the fact that our pitching would be this good (btw, where are those who didn't want Duke in the rotation this year...I don't think they saw this pitching coming). And that would have been a great way to guarantee 5 more losing seasons, and certainly wouldn't have assured us a spot in the playoffs this year. Its simply not a sustainable model. I guess when I made my original post, it was my belief that everyone would want to see a good team year after year, not a one-year wonder.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:55 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Flags fly forever, BBF.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:53 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:06 pm
Posts: 1587
Willton wrote:
BBf, do not forget Curtis Granderson, who is an excellent CF.

Further, the trade for Carlos Guillen is the exact type of trade that Neal Huntington would do. The Lastings Milledge trade reminds me of the Carlos Guillen trade, in that Dombrowski took advantage of an inept Seattle franchise the same way NH took advantage of an inept Nationals franchise.
.


OK and here is my quote, and I repeat myself. Lastings *%$#*!# Milledge, that's right I said Lastings *%$#*!# Milledge, will NEVER be a quality major league player for the Pittsburgh Pirates, or for anyone else for that matter.

As I said in another post, Milledge will go down in Pirate history along with Derek Bell and George Hendrick in the Popular Pirates Hall of Fame.

It was great to see Nyjer Morgan traded for a clubhouse cancer who is currently on the Triple A disabled list.

Another total *%$#*!# loser to save Bob Nutting some money.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:11 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Corsair wrote:
Willton wrote:
BBf, do not forget Curtis Granderson, who is an excellent CF.

Further, the trade for Carlos Guillen is the exact type of trade that Neal Huntington would do. The Lastings Milledge trade reminds me of the Carlos Guillen trade, in that Dombrowski took advantage of an inept Seattle franchise the same way NH took advantage of an inept Nationals franchise.
.


OK and here is my quote, and I repeat myself. Lastings *%$#*!# Milledge, that's right I said Lastings *%$#*!# Milledge, will NEVER be a quality major league player for the Pittsburgh Pirates, or for anyone else for that matter.

As I said in another post, Milledge will go down in Pirate history along with Derek Bell and George Hendrick in the Popular Pirates Hall of Fame.

It was great to see Nyjer Morgan traded for a clubhouse cancer who is currently on the Triple A disabled list.

Another total *%$#*!# loser to save Bob Nutting some money.

Yeah, because having nice guys on the team has done this team wonders in the past. :roll:

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:51 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:32 pm
Posts: 3173
Location: Darlington, Pennsylvania
Well page 5 of this topic made me lose alot of respect for one of the board posters that i had alot of respect for in the past. I wont say who because i am not here to attack anyone, but does it tickle your fantasy to pat yourself on the back and put others down for no reason what so ever?
I have never been one to hype myself up and talk about how great i think i am, and i hate those who do.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:27 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:07 pm
Posts: 1594
It's funny to think that some would want us to be the 1997 Marlins.

Buy a series, then wipe the deck clean.

I'm guessing the people in favor of that type of team, are also big fans of one hit wonder singers like Right Said Fred.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:27 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Springfield, IL
Colin, I will apologize to you if I offended you in anyway.. I noticed I did a post on page five..if it was me, I apologize to you..


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:59 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:32 pm
Posts: 3173
Location: Darlington, Pennsylvania
curveradio wrote:
Colin, I will apologize to you if I offended you in anyway.. I noticed I did a post on page five..if it was me, I apologize to you..


No you didn't offend me. It was the whole discussion on page 5 that got to me. I'm not mad at anyone.
I just think that there is alot of good baseball conversation on this board, but what seems to stand out is the studity, and i don't want that to be.
Truely i was alittle angry with you and i will explain why.I go to Northwestern University and i will be going into my 4th year at the end of August, I major in sports journalism and sports medicine. I will be attending Medill after i graduate this year. Being in the Chicago area and because of the Tribune Company we research alot on the Cubs.
One of the first assignments we had to do was cover the West Tennessee Diamond Jaxx when they were still the Cubs AA team. I think one of the first things i read about the team was an article written in the Cubs magazine by, you guessed it Ron Potesta. It taught me so much about a team that i had no idea about in a very quick time.
Being that i am not in Medill yet me and alot of my classmates get put down all the time( Brent Musburger and Jack Fuller are two of the ones that come to mind), but i get alot of stuff like this all the time
Quote:
hate to break it to you kid.. but there's a reason why you and some of the other idiots spewing your unintellegent baseball garble don't have a job in this game..

That did get me alittle bit, because it isn't what i thought i would hear.
There are alot of great minds on this board that deserved to be been able to attend a school like Medill, but because of money restraints and things like that they couldn't. I just don't want the 3 to 4 people that have no knowledge of reality to clould your vision and not be able to see the 10-15 people that really and truely know what they are talking about.
I am sorry for how i responded and i embarrassed myself by what i said about patting yourself on the back.
I still do and always will have the utmost respect for your curveradio and i am sorry for what i said.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: How would you build the Pirates?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:32 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 3364
Location: Wheeling, WV
Corsair wrote:
Willton wrote:
BBf, do not forget Curtis Granderson, who is an excellent CF.

Further, the trade for Carlos Guillen is the exact type of trade that Neal Huntington would do. The Lastings Milledge trade reminds me of the Carlos Guillen trade, in that Dombrowski took advantage of an inept Seattle franchise the same way NH took advantage of an inept Nationals franchise.
.


OK and here is my quote, and I repeat myself. Lastings *%$#*!# Milledge, that's right I said Lastings *%$#*!# Milledge, will NEVER be a quality major league player for the Pittsburgh Pirates, or for anyone else for that matter.

As I said in another post, Milledge will go down in Pirate history along with Derek Bell and George Hendrick in the Popular Pirates Hall of Fame.

It was great to see Nyjer Morgan traded for a clubhouse cancer who is currently on the Triple A disabled list.

Another total *%$#*!# loser to save Bob Nutting some money.


Is that language going to be permitted by the moderators of this board? Please answer that question for me as I consider important.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits