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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:08 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Wilton is not a real pirate fan. He is a new jersey wanna be Pirate fan.
He has no knowledge of baseball he is living in a fantasy world, where teams don't spend money, and anyone making a lot of money is a hurt to his team. Other teams want good players they aren't afraid to trade for high salary guys. Look at Halladay, and players like that. If you spend money on talent, it will make your team better end of story.

Ryann is not a smart Pirate fan. He is an idiot of a Pirate fan. He is apparently completely oblivious to the history of teams that spend lots of money on good players when they have a poor core of homegrown players.

Look at the Baltimore Orioles of 2004, who signed Miguel Tejada and Rafael Palmeiro despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the Seattle Mariners of 2005, who signed Richie Sexson and Adrien Beltre to huge deals despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the San Francisco Giants of 2006 and 2007, who signed Matt Morris and Barry Zito to huge contracts despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the Washington Nationals of 2009, who spent $20M on Adam Dunn despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done so far. These four teams have shown that spending gobs of money on talent does not necessarily make your team a better team. End of story.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:26 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Wilton is not a real pirate fan. He is a new jersey wanna be Pirate fan.
He has no knowledge of baseball he is living in a fantasy world, where teams don't spend money, and anyone making a lot of money is a hurt to his team. Other teams want good players they aren't afraid to trade for high salary guys. Look at Halladay, and players like that. If you spend money on talent, it will make your team better end of story.

Ryann is not a smart Pirate fan. He is an idiot of a Pirate fan. He is apparently completely oblivious to the history of teams that spend lots of money on good players when they have a poor core of homegrown players.

Look at the Baltimore Orioles of 2004, who signed Miguel Tejada and Rafael Palmeiro despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the Seattle Mariners of 2005, who signed Richie Sexson and Adrien Beltre to huge deals despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the San Francisco Giants of 2006 and 2007, who signed Matt Morris and Barry Zito to huge contracts despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the Washington Nationals of 2009, who spent $20M on Adam Dunn despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done so far. These four teams have shown that spending gobs of money on talent does not necessarily make your team a better team. End of story.


Seattle and San Francisco are in the playoff races. They also have better players then the pirates, and better farm systems. :lol:

You are the idiot! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:59 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Seattle and San Francisco are in the playoff races. They also have better players then the pirates, and better farm systems. :lol:

Yes, and notice how their pricey free agents are having very little to do with it. Last I checked, Sexson and Morris were gone from their respective teams, Beltre still stinks, and Zito is below average. Talk about bad investments. The reason those teams are in their respective playoff races has very little to do with the amount of money they're spending and almost everything to do with developing good pitchers cheaply (Lincecum, Cain, Felix Hernandez) and getting good work from cheap commodities (Pedro Sandoval, Russ Branyan, Franklin Guitierrez, Jason Vargas). Most of their respective payrolls are devoted to below average players; the only high priced guys that are contributing are Bedard, Ichiro, and Washburn from Seattle and Rowand from San Fran. It's the cheap guys that are winning for those teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:37 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Seattle and San Francisco are in the playoff races. They also have better players then the pirates, and better farm systems. :lol:

Yes, and notice how their pricey free agents are having very little to do with it. Last I checked, Sexson and Morris were gone from their respective teams, Beltre still stinks, and Zito is below average. Talk about bad investments. The reason those teams are in their respective playoff races has very little to do with the amount of money they're spending and almost everything to do with developing good pitchers cheaply (Lincecum, Cain, Felix Hernandez) and getting good work from cheap commodities (Pedro Sandoval, Russ Branyan, Franklin Guitierrez, Jason Vargas). Most of their respective payrolls are devoted to below average players; the only high priced guys that are contributing are Bedard, Ichiro, and Washburn from Seattle and Rowand from San Fran. It's the cheap guys that are winning for those teams.


Yet the pricey ones still are key components.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:50 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Yet the pricey ones still are key components.

But they would be nothing if it weren't for their farm systems. Don't you see? Just signing high priced free agents, even good ones, does not get you to contention. You have to have the good core group of players first in order to sustain winning. That's what the Pirates are trying to achieve now: they're replenishing their once-barren farm system in order to produce talented players that can be good core group of players. Free agents are only good to supplement that winning core. If you go after free agents first, you'll just be losing in a really expensive way. The history of Seattle and San Fran clearly shows that.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:12 am 
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Willton wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Wilton is not a real pirate fan. He is a new jersey wanna be Pirate fan.
He has no knowledge of baseball he is living in a fantasy world, where teams don't spend money, and anyone making a lot of money is a hurt to his team. Other teams want good players they aren't afraid to trade for high salary guys. Look at Halladay, and players like that. If you spend money on talent, it will make your team better end of story.

Ryann is not a smart Pirate fan. He is an idiot of a Pirate fan. He is apparently completely oblivious to the history of teams that spend lots of money on good players when they have a poor core of homegrown players.

Look at the Baltimore Orioles of 2004, who signed Miguel Tejada and Rafael Palmeiro despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the Seattle Mariners of 2005, who signed Richie Sexson and Adrien Beltre to huge deals despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the San Francisco Giants of 2006 and 2007, who signed Matt Morris and Barry Zito to huge contracts despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the Washington Nationals of 2009, who spent $20M on Adam Dunn despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done so far. These four teams have shown that spending gobs of money on talent does not necessarily make your team a better team. End of story.


Wilton. Good luck on the BAR exam. It's not my field but your posts crack me up in a good way, and I think you have definitely chosen the right field. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:58 am 
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Willton wrote:
Look at the Baltimore Orioles of 2004, who signed Miguel Tejada and Rafael Palmeiro despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the Seattle Mariners of 2005, who signed Richie Sexson and Adrien Beltre to huge deals despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the San Francisco Giants of 2006 and 2007, who signed Matt Morris and Barry Zito to huge contracts despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done since. Look at the Washington Nationals of 2009, who spent $20M on Adam Dunn despite having a poor core of talent, and how they've done so far. These four teams have shown that spending gobs of money on talent does not necessarily make your team a better team. End of story.



I would argue that you could add the glamorous NY Yankees to your list. From 96-01 they made all but one World Series (1997). The core of those teams was Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, Andy Petitte. Key players added by free agency included Scott Brosius, Paul O'Neill, Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, Ruben Sierra among others. Really, no really high priced talent from outside of the organization. The core was homegrown. Starting right around then, they started to really go crazy with Free Agents or trading for high price talent like Jason Giambi, Alex Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Johnny Damon, Hideki Matsui, Carl Pavano, Kevin Brown and others.

The results can be viewed a couple of ways. One can look at the team as say, "Well, they have averaged 97 wins a season since 2002". Or you can look at a team that underachieves, fails miserably in the playoffs and has seen large capital investments get little return on investment (roughly 4.2 million dollars per Carl Pavano's 9 career NYY wins or the 2.1 million dollars per win for Kevin Brown's two years in NY). Sure, last year was the only year the Yanks haven't made the playoffs in well over a decade but they are not nearly the team they were when their core was comprised solely of homegrown talent and strategic, high value (not high dollar) free agents.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:11 am 
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Willton wrote:
.. and Zito is below average. Talk about bad investments...


And, boy, do I remember being just pilloried here for saying that at the time of the signing. I knew you'd come around... ;)

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:04 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Willton wrote:
.. and Zito is below average. Talk about bad investments...


And, boy, do I remember being just pilloried here for saying that at the time of the signing. I knew you'd come around... ;)

ZM

I'm pretty sure I called the Zito signing a bad signing when it happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:14 pm 
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Willton wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Willton wrote:
.. and Zito is below average. Talk about bad investments...


And, boy, do I remember being just pilloried here for saying that at the time of the signing. I knew you'd come around... ;)

ZM

I'm pretty sure I called the Zito signing a bad signing when it happened.


Should have pointed out that was a rhetorical "you". Sorry 'bout that.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Wilton, you must be in a fighting mood or just feel like typing for awhile because I know that your well thought out responses are not getting through to the young'n, that's if he is actually reading them.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Yet the pricey ones still are key components.

But they would be nothing if it weren't for their farm systems. Don't you see? Just signing high priced free agents, even good ones, does not get you to contention. You have to have the good core group of players first in order to sustain winning. That's what the Pirates are trying to achieve now: they're replenishing their once-barren farm system in order to produce talented players that can be good core group of players. Free agents are only good to supplement that winning core. If you go after free agents first, you'll just be losing in a really expensive way. The history of Seattle and San Fran clearly shows that.

Look at the Red sox. They trade for good players sign them, and win.
Shit look at many of the top teams around baseball all spend more then the Pirates. To win you need to spend money.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Look at the Red sox. They trade for good players sign them, and win.
Shit look at many of the top teams around baseball all spend more then the Pirates. To win you need to spend money.

Tell that to the Florida Marlins and Tampa Bay Rays.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:56 pm 
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[/quote]
Ryann is not a smart Pirate fan. He is an idiot of a Pirate fan. He is apparently completely oblivious to the history of teams that spend lots of money on good players when they have a poor core of homegrown players.

[/quote]

Smart Pirate Fan...

Is that an Oxymoron?

Like Jumbo Shrimp?
or Icey Hot?

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:14 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Seattle and San Francisco are in the playoff races. They also have better players then the pirates, and better farm systems. :lol:

Yes, and notice how their pricey free agents are having very little to do with it. Last I checked, Sexson and Morris were gone from their respective teams, Beltre still stinks, and Zito is below average. Talk about bad investments. The reason those teams are in their respective playoff races has very little to do with the amount of money they're spending and almost everything to do with developing good pitchers cheaply (Lincecum, Cain, Felix Hernandez) and getting good work from cheap commodities (Pedro Sandoval, Russ Branyan, Franklin Guitierrez, Jason Vargas). Most of their respective payrolls are devoted to below average players; the only high priced guys that are contributing are Bedard, Ichiro, and Washburn from Seattle and Rowand from San Fran. It's the cheap guys that are winning for those teams.


Russ Branyan is having a career year this year after bouncing around for the last couple of years...That was a nice pick up for Seattle...

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:52 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Wilton, you must be in a fighting mood or just feel like typing for awhile because I know that your well thought out responses are not getting through to the young'n, that's if he is actually reading them.

A good point. I should just save my energy and not bother. Kids like him only understand "You're stupid!" types of remarks. Ryann doesn't want to have a discussion; he wants to have a fight.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:24 pm 
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Chris Anderson wrote:
I would argue that you could add the glamorous NY Yankees to your list. From 96-01 they made all but one World Series (1997). The core of those teams was Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, Andy Petitte. Key players added by free agency included Scott Brosius, Paul O'Neill, Tino Martinez, Chuck Knoblauch, Ruben Sierra among others. Really, no really high priced talent from outside of the organization. The core was homegrown. Starting right around then, they started to really go crazy with Free Agents or trading for high price talent like Jason Giambi, Alex Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Johnny Damon, Hideki Matsui, Carl Pavano, Kevin Brown and others.

The results can be viewed a couple of ways. One can look at the team as say, "Well, they have averaged 97 wins a season since 2002". Or you can look at a team that underachieves, fails miserably in the playoffs and has seen large capital investments get little return on investment (roughly 4.2 million dollars per Carl Pavano's 9 career NYY wins or the 2.1 million dollars per win for Kevin Brown's two years in NY). Sure, last year was the only year the Yanks haven't made the playoffs in well over a decade but they are not nearly the team they were when their core was comprised solely of homegrown talent and strategic, high value (not high dollar) free agents.



Very, very good analysis on this. I never really made that connection.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:51 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Wilton, you must be in a fighting mood or just feel like typing for awhile because I know that your well thought out responses are not getting through to the young'n, that's if he is actually reading them.

A good point. I should just save my energy and not bother. Kids like him only understand "You're stupid!" types of remarks. Ryann doesn't want to have a discussion; he wants to have a fight.

You do not want a discussion you want me to say the Pirates are geniuses and all their moves are going to lead them to glory. :lol:


You're pathetic! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:13 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Willton wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Wilton, you must be in a fighting mood or just feel like typing for awhile because I know that your well thought out responses are not getting through to the young'n, that's if he is actually reading them.

A good point. I should just save my energy and not bother. Kids like him only understand "You're stupid!" types of remarks. Ryann doesn't want to have a discussion; he wants to have a fight.

You do not want a discussion you want me to say the Pirates are geniuses and all their moves are going to lead them to glory. :lol:


You're pathetic! :lol:

Oh, wow, you got me. That's just what I wanted. Guilty as charged! :roll:

Now please, if you're not going to listen to reason, then just go away.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Sanchez
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:40 am 
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You have never presented a valid argument to prove the team is going in the right direction. You refuse to admit the Bay trade was a failure when all signs indicate it very clearly was.

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