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 Post subject: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:06 am 
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GM Huntingdon says that despite Gorzzy's impressive numbers at AAA, he is far from ready for a return to the major and that VVasquez has a strong hold on the #5 spot.

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/news/ ... p&c_id=pit

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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:14 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:54 am 
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Animal wrote:
GM Huntingdon says that despite Gorzzy's impressive numbers at AAA, he is far from ready for a return to the major and that VVasquez has a strong hold on the #5 spot.

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/news/ ... p&c_id=pit

I think they are clearly trying to delay arbitration eligibility for another year. I guess NH can't come right out and say that. Still, this kind of prevaricating eats into his credibility a bit, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:54 am 
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I'm not sure of the reason. Stopping his seniority clock may well be a major part of it. Does anyone thing it's because he from the old GM and looses credibility with him? Is he out of options? Is NH telling the truth? Maybe he's right about the no.5 starter and maybe Gorzo has been dominating the lower end hitters and not the major league ready guys.

But it is nice that there are options to discuss now-- not so last year and absolutely not for the two or three years before that.

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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:38 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
I'm not sure of the reason. Stopping his seniority clock may well be a major part of it. Does anyone thing it's because he from the old GM and looses credibility with him? Is he out of options? Is NH telling the truth? Maybe he's right about the no.5 starter and maybe Gorzo has been dominating the lower end hitters and not the major league ready guys.

But it is nice that there are options to discuss now-- not so last year and absolutely not for the two or three years before that.

This year is Gorzo's last option. If Gorzo gets called up on August 27th or later...then it was all about arbitration.

The BS about dominating lower end hitters is just that...BS. Have you looked at most AAA rosters recently?? There aren't many "kids" on most of those rosters. If that was the case...you wouldn't be calling up ANY pitchers from AAA.

Pirates are going to have some tough decisions to make in the next few months when it comes to pitchers. It sounds like we will see Dumatrait before the end of the season...and Gorzo will be out of options. I pretty much guarantee that if Gorzo doesn't make the team in Spring Training...someone will claim him quicker than they can spell his name.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:46 am 
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Gorzo's problem is he still wastes too many pitches to finish off hitters...He gives you 5, maybe 6 innings...and thats about 120 pitches for him...

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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:54 am 
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Yep, NH is simply telling you the truth. A couple good outings in terms of shutout innings does not a "ready" make.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:00 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Yep, NH is simply telling you the truth. A couple good outings in terms of shutout innings does not a "ready" make.

ZM

What defines ready?? How about a 4.18 ERA?? Would that be ready?? That was VV's ERA when he was called up.

My point is that "ready" is whatever management decides it is. If they don't want to bring someone up, they won't. And in Gorzo's case...they seem to have a problem with him being a starter. That doesn't look like it's going to change. I see Gorzo in the majors...in a uniform that does NOT say Pittsburgh on the front...in 2010. And the Pirates will eventually regret that choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:04 pm 
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I don't think he is ready to come up as a starter yet. He could be a good reliever, but that would take too much away from our AAA teams starting rotation.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:30 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
I don't think he is ready to come up as a starter yet. He could be a good reliever, but that would take too much away from our AAA teams starting rotation.


And why is taking Gorzo away from the Indy rotation a problem?? Have you looked at their starting lineup?? They have two infielders starting in the outfield!! Doesn't seem like the Pirates are too worried about their Indy roster.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:37 pm 
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Thunder wrote:
Colin21 wrote:
I don't think he is ready to come up as a starter yet. He could be a good reliever, but that would take too much away from our AAA teams starting rotation.


And why is taking Gorzo away from the Indy rotation a problem?? Have you looked at their starting lineup?? They have two infielders starting in the outfield!! Doesn't seem like the Pirates are too worried about their Indy roster.



His stint as a relief pitcher was as an emergency role, and probably to give him a taste of the bigs again to get him to want to get back even more...

He's not a relief pitcher and I wouldn't want him back in the pen unless he's the only choice left...his value is as a starter

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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:49 pm 
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At Indianapolis...

VV 79.2 IP, 85 H, 37 R, 37 ER, 10 BB, 53 K, 10 HR, 4.18 ERA, 1.192 WHIP, 6 K/9 IP, 5.3 K/BB.
Gorzo 62.2 IP, 53 H, 26 R, 20 ER, 21 BB, 62 K, 2 HR, 2.87 ERA, 1.181 WHIP, 8.9 K/0 IP, 2.95 K/BB.

What am I missing here?? Higher walk rate but MUCH lower HR rate?? Yet...VV is deemed ready...Gorzo is not.

And if you want to make a big deal of Gorzo's time with the Pirates this season...those big 8 2/3 IP. He was charged with 5 runs in that time...for a ERA of 5.19. Well, he was already out of the game for 3 of those runs. During his time in the games...only 2 runners scored (both in the same appearance 5/21)...which...had his replacements (Meek in one game (5/25), Capps in the other (5/30)) done their jobs...he would have had a 2.08 ERA.

Little different outlook, isn't it??

Never mind...no use letting facts or statistics get in the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:52 pm 
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Thunder wrote:
What defines ready?? How about a 4.18 ERA?? Would that be ready?? ...


I like the softball questions.

ERA? Who cares, really.

The differance in VV and Gorzo is readily apparent, and while I am no real fan of the VV experiment, the contrast in ability to throw STRIKES is night and day. In that sense VV is quite MLB ready, and Gorzo still thows 120 pitches to get through 6 innings.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:55 pm 
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Thunder wrote:
At Indianapolis...

VV 79.2 IP, 85 H, 37 R, 37 ER, 10 BB, 53 K, 10 HR, 4.18 ERA, 1.192 WHIP, 6 K/9 IP, 5.3 K/BB.
Gorzo 62.2 IP, 53 H, 26 R, 20 ER, 21 BB, 62 K, 2 HR, 2.87 ERA, 1.181 WHIP, 8.9 K/0 IP, 2.95 K/BB.

What am I missing here?? Higher walk rate but MUCH lower HR rate?? Yet...VV is deemed ready...Gorzo is not.

And if you want to make a big deal of Gorzo's time with the Pirates this season...those big 8 2/3 IP. He was charged with 5 runs in that time...for a ERA of 5.19. Well, he was already out of the game for 3 of those runs. During his time in the games...only 2 runners scored (both in the same appearance 5/21)...which...had his replacements (Meek in one game (5/25), Capps in the other (5/30)) done their jobs...he would have had a 2.08 ERA.

Little different outlook, isn't it??

Never mind...no use letting facts or statistics get in the way.


Yes Gorzo is better than Vazquez, but when Gorzo is back I want him to be at his best...He still has a problem finishing hitters and wasting too many pitches. He still needs to show that on a consistant basis...

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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:02 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Thunder wrote:
What defines ready?? How about a 4.18 ERA?? Would that be ready?? ...


I like the softball questions.

ERA? Who cares, really.

The differance in VV and Gorzo is readily apparent, and while I am no real fan of the VV experiment, the contrast in ability to throw STRIKES is night and day. In that sense VV is quite MLB ready, and Gorzo still thows 120 pitches to get through 6 innings.

ZM

Oh...so Gorzo's much higher K/9 IP, and much lower hit rate and HR rate don't matter either?? OK. Can't strike out more batters per 9 IP without throwing strikes...or that his WHIP is lower than VV. OK. I provided all the stats...you just picked one that you don't care about.

Never mind...your mind is already made up...I won't try to change it with facts or statistics any longer.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:22 pm 
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Basically putting what ZM said into numbers.........

Code:
Date  IP   #P
4/21  5.2  90
4/26  5.1  94
5/2   7.0  95
5/7   6.0  99
5/12  5.2  102
6/14  4.0  60
6/22  5.0  78
6/27  5.0  87
7/3   8.0  89


With the exception of his last start, he's throwing way too many pitches. His pitch count would only climb if we bring him up now as he would be facing better hitters. He may have good numbers in AAA, but if he can only go 4 or 5 innings, his worth to the team is minimal. Unless of course you like the thought of over extending the bullpen and having guys like Veal and Hanrahan have to pitch a few innings in middle relief.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:31 pm 
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Even if NH is bending the truth about Gorzy to keep him from arbitration, big deal, this is how the game is played in the majors. Gorzy isn't going to instantly turn the Pirates from a last place team to a contender, so assuming that he'll be ready to contribute at the major league level again, this is the better move for the team in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:38 pm 
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Why was Gorzo sent to the minors?
Pitch counts too high.
Needed to be more efficient.
Needed to be more consistent.
Too many walks.

Results in the minors? Pitch counts too high, lack of efficiency, too many walks.

If he hasn't resolved the issues that caused him to be demoted, why is he deserving of a promotion? Why would one expect different results when he is promoted? If he can't be efficient and keep pitch counts low at the AAA level, why exactly would you expect him to be more efficient against better hitters?

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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:39 pm 
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You are letting logic get in the way of a WHIP analysis.
Your mind is made up.
You've been given the stats.
NH apologist!

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Huntingdon Says Gorzzy Not Yet Ready for Return
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
With the exception of his last start, he's throwing way too many pitches. His pitch count would only climb if we bring him up now as he would be facing better hitters. He may have good numbers in AAA, but if he can only go 4 or 5 innings, his worth to the team is minimal.


Happened again tonight: 110 pitches through 5-2/3 innings. He walked 4 and gave up 5 hits (three of them doubles).

BTW, Indianapolis is having a no-hitter thrown at them through 6 innings at Columbus.

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