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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:30 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
estrago wrote:
Curve

You think that just because the GM is using the Indian plan that the Pirates will be sure fire winners. Sorry Curve, it just does not work this way. They may be using a similar plan, but it does not mean winning is a sure bet. You just ignore that simple obvious fact.

Ownership claimed they needed a new park to compete and was needed to build a winner. The main attraction for free agents is the money. Get a clue


BH, you are clutching and grasping at what the Pirates once were because you know very soon that you aren't going to have anything to complain about. Check that, I don't doubt you will find something to complain about when we are winning. Each time you make a post you say the same things regardless of the improvement that is happening. I wonder if you aren't paying attention, or you frankly don't care about the Pirates (but to rile up us faithful fans), or you don't have a grasp of the overall MLB picture (teams are in business to make money, otherwise they'd find a city that COULD make them money). Dude you remind me of the tape recorders of the 80's... any time you enter a discussion, you hit rewind, then play, someone responds to your post, you hit rewind, then play... and on and on... It gets so freakin old dude... OLD... sorry I had to call you out like that.


Here are the facts. The Pirates suck right now. They are in yet another rebuilding plan. This time they are trying to do it almost entirely with prospects. Will it make them a winner? That is to be determined, yet fans like you and curve think it is a sure thing.
If this plan works, great. But guess what...if it fails, you and others like you will continue to support whatever plan is in place because you are blinded by emotions. You are going to support whoever runs the Pirates no matter what. And you know it!

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:46 am 
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estrago wrote:
Curve

You think that just because the GM is using the Indian plan that the Pirates will be sure fire winners. Sorry Curve, it just does not work this way. They may be using a similar plan, but it does not mean winning is a sure bet. You just ignore that simple obvious fact.

No, but it does make winning a more probable outcome in the future. No one can guarantee winning, not even the Yankees. Even you as a businessman should know that there are no guaranteed successful business models. However, one can use a plan that has proven to work in the past and utilize it to make it more probable that the team will win in the future. That is what we are seeing here, and that is why there is reason to be optimistic about the future.

Quote:
Ownership claimed they needed a new park to compete and was needed to build a winner. The main attraction for free agents is the money. Get a clue

Free agents should not be of interest to the Pirates right now. Signing Alex Rodriguez or Mark Teixeira would not make this team a winner. This team needs an entire makeover, and there are not enough good players in free agency that would achieve that end. Furthermore, there are very few teams that have won due solely to buying up free agents. Even the Red Sox obtained most of its good players either from its farm system (Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jonathon Papelbon, Jon Lester, Jason Varitek, Manny Delcarmen) or by trading pieces from its farm system (Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell for Hanley Ramirez et al.). The Dodgers, another big spending team, would be nothing without its farm system (Matt Kemp, Russ Martin, James Loney, Clayton Kershaw, Johnathon Broxton, Chad Billingsley). Plenty of teams have proven that success begins with the farm system, not with free agency.

What you always fail to realize is that merely spending money on free agents is not a recipe for future success in baseball. A mere look at the Baltimore Orioles and Seattle Mariners franchises will provide enough proof of that fact. When this team is on the cusp of contending, then it will be prudent to explore top talents in the free agent market. Right now, spending significant amounts of money there would be a bad investment.

Estrago, you as a business man should know that some businesses need to operate at a loss initially before the business really starts to take off. The same analogy should be applied to baseball: a struggling franchise often has to mortgage the present in order to have a successful future.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:48 am 
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estrago wrote:
Here are the facts. The Pirates suck right now. They are in yet another rebuilding plan. This time they are trying to do it almost entirely with prospects. Will it make them a winner? That is to be determined, yet fans like you and curve think it is a sure thing.
If this plan works, great. But guess what...if it fails, you and others like you will continue to support whatever plan is in place because you are blinded by emotions. You are going to support whoever runs the Pirates no matter what. And you know it!

And you are going to denigrate them no matter what they do because you don't understand baseball.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:12 pm 
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Quote:
Here are the facts. The Pirates suck right now. They are in yet another rebuilding plan. This time they are trying to do it almost entirely with prospects. Will it make them a winner? That is to be determined, yet fans like you and curve think it is a sure thing.
If this plan works, great. But guess what...if it fails, you and others like you will continue to support whatever plan is in place because you are blinded by emotions. You are going to support whoever runs the Pirates no matter what. And you know it!


Yes, that is the definition of a fan. One who supports his team through the thick and thin. Imagine if you were a Cubs fan, isn't the definition of a "winning" season, winning the WS? If so, they have a longer streak than us. Granted the Cubs have had winning teams in the past, but 100 years and counting on actually winning it all? Sounds pretty hopeless if you ask me. But there fans keep coming year after year. Perhaps your services would be better rendered on a Cubs site...


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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:28 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Here are the facts. The Pirates suck right now. They are in yet another rebuilding plan. This time they are trying to do it almost entirely with prospects. Will it make them a winner? That is to be determined, yet fans like you and curve think it is a sure thing.
If this plan works, great. But guess what...if it fails, you and others like you will continue to support whatever plan is in place because you are blinded by emotions. You are going to support whoever runs the Pirates no matter what. And you know it!

So, those of us that think the current plan is a good one have always supported Pirates management no matter what? Is that your assertion? Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by "supported".

I may believe that President Obama's policies and leadership are moving the country in a positive direction despite the fact that things are looking grim right now.* Does that imply that I also supported President Bush no matter what? If I'm relatively non-partisan, I may have rooted for the Bush administration to make things better even though I disagreed. And, even if I voted for McCain, I may support Obama now because I care about my country more than a particular party or ideology. So, in that way, yes, I may have supported both presidents. In the same way, I may have "supported" both Littlefield and Bonifay in that I wished them to be successful. Does that mean I agreed with their direction or believed that it would work? Decidedly not. And I think many others on this board feel the same way.

I have no problem with you adopting a wait and see attitude on NH's approach. The proof is in the pudding, no question about it. What bugs me is that, instead of arguing pro or con based on the merits, you simply tie him to the prior regimes using guilt-by-association when, clearly, they are doing something different and something that has worked in other places. And, you falsely accuse those of us that agree with the current approach as, somehow, alway agreeing with everything that the prior guys did when there is no evidence that this is the case.

* Hypothetical. My political views my own and may or may not agree with what I have written above.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:29 pm 
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Willton wrote:
estrago wrote:
Curve

You think that just because the GM is using the Indian plan that the Pirates will be sure fire winners. Sorry Curve, it just does not work this way. They may be using a similar plan, but it does not mean winning is a sure bet. You just ignore that simple obvious fact.

No, but it does make winning a more probable outcome in the future. No one can guarantee winning, not even the Yankees. Even you as a businessman should know that there are no guaranteed successful business models. However, one can use a plan that has proven to work in the past and utilize it to make it more probable that the team will win in the future. That is what we are seeing here, and that is why there is reason to be optimistic about the future.

Quote:
Ownership claimed they needed a new park to compete and was needed to build a winner. The main attraction for free agents is the money. Get a clue

Free agents should not be of interest to the Pirates right now. Signing Alex Rodriguez or Mark Teixeira would not make this team a winner. This team needs an entire makeover, and there are not enough good players in free agency that would achieve that end. Furthermore, there are very few teams that have won due solely to buying up free agents. Even the Red Sox obtained most of its good players either from its farm system (Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jonathon Papelbon, Jon Lester, Jason Varitek, Manny Delcarmen) or by trading pieces from its farm system (Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell for Hanley Ramirez et al.). The Dodgers, another big spending team, would be nothing without its farm system (Matt Kemp, Russ Martin, James Loney, Clayton Kershaw, Johnathon Broxton, Chad Billingsley). Plenty of teams have proven that success begins with the farm system, not with free agency.

What you always fail to realize is that merely spending money on free agents is not a recipe for future success in baseball. A mere look at the Baltimore Orioles and Seattle Mariners franchises will provide enough proof of that fact. When this team is on the cusp of contending, then it will be prudent to explore top talents in the free agent market. Right now, spending significant amounts of money there would be a bad investment.

Estrago, you as a business man should know that some businesses need to operate at a loss initially before the business really starts to take off. The same analogy should be applied to baseball: a struggling franchise often has to mortgage the present in order to have a successful future.


First of all building up with prospects who have potential is not more probable for winning. The Pirates have a great business model....and the product does not have to be good or even average to make a nice profit. They are not operating at a loss. I have never said spending money on free agents is a sure way for the Pirates to win..dont put words in my mouth..you do that to many posters here Jr. You read a book or two and you think you understand baseball Jr?
I understand business and baseball very well. Maybe you will too after you get in the real world instead of books and theory. From a win loss perspective, the Pirates have earned the right to be denigrated....17 record breaking years of losing sums it up.
I want them to do well...I always have to take my lumps from others around the country when talking about the Pens & Steelers and then have to answer to the wart of a team

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:27 pm 
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estrago wrote:
First of all building up with prospects who have potential is not more probable for winning.

Really? Why not? Because the success of the Braves, A's, Brewers, Rays, and Indians seem to say that it is.

estrago wrote:
The Pirates have a great business model....and the product does not have to be good or even average to make a nice profit. They are not operating at a loss.

I'm using the analogy in the context of winning and losing. I rendered no opinion on the Pirates organization's business model. What I'm saying is that for the team to win consistently in the future, it will likely have to take a hit in the W/L column in the present.

estrago wrote:
I have never said spending money on free agents is a sure way for the Pirates to win..dont put words in my mouth..you do that to many posters here Jr. You read a book or two and you think you understand baseball Jr?

Yes, old fogey, I do think I understand baseball, especially after reading a number of intelligent books on the subject. I certainly understand baseball better than you, as you have clearly taken no time to understand the game outside of some shit your dear old pappy may have told you about the game. Otherwise you'd be able to engage in a discussion about the merits of certain strategies of how to construct a winning baseball club, instead of pointing to the past and using guilt-by-association to poo-poo the team's current regime. In the law, we call this using character evidence to prove a point ("Once a criminal, always a criminal"), and it's a very weak argument.

If you want to criticize the current regime's plan, then do so on its merits.

estrago wrote:
I understand business and baseball very well. Maybe you will too after you get in the real world instead of books and theory.

Ah yes, because you clearly have much more experience than me in working in the real world of baseball. Tell me, how much experience do you have running a baseball franchise? Wait, none? Okay, how much experience do you have working in the baseball industry? None? Well, then how do you understand baseball so well?

estrago wrote:
From a win loss perspective, the Pirates have earned the right to be denigrated....17 record breaking years of losing sums it up.

And past conduct of one regime does not predict future conduct of another regime. The 17 years of losing is a sad fact, but it has nothing to do with whether the team is currently going in the right direction. Until you can show how the current plan is somehow flawed and will not achieve its intended result, pointing to the past carries little weight.

estrago wrote:
I want them to do well...I always have to take my lumps from others around the country when talking about the Pens & Steelers and then have to answer to the wart of a team

Oh boo hoo. I'm sure New York Knick fans feel really sorry for you.

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Last edited by Willton on Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:28 pm 
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Some of you guys keep talking about the rebuilding plans of the past not working.

Do any of you ever remember having players of the Cutch, Alvarez, Tabata kind of talent level in past plans? I don't. I remember Tike Redman, Chad Hermansen and other players of FAR less talent than what we have brewing now.

The plan is working, but Huntington needs more than a year and a half to pull in the pieces.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:41 pm 
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VanSlick wrote:
Some of you guys keep talking about the rebuilding plans of the past not working.

Do any of you ever remember having players of the Cutch, Alvarez, Tabata kind of talent level in past plans? I don't. I remember Tike Redman, Chad Hermansen and other players of FAR less talent than what we have brewing now.

The plan is working, but Huntington needs more than a year and a half to pull in the pieces.

There were players who were like cutch alvarez and tabata. But they never made any impact on the team. Say cutch is like ramirez who we traded to the cubs then there is a lot of flops which could be these other players.
Van Benschoten's, bullington, eldred, and those guys. They were highly regarded at some point.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Wilton
There are how many teams in MLB? Look at the teams that have won...and on a fairly consistant basis. Just because you read a book, you know it all right? All you have to do is read those books and you are an expert. Every owner should do that and be as smart as you are..right Jr? Or could it be that there are other books and other ways?

Quote:
" past conduct of one regime does not predict future conduct of another regime"

So using your own words the teams like the A's or Indians that the Pirates are following does not predict winning for the Pirates?

And what expeience do you have in the world of business or finance? Best I can tell, all of your experience is in books. I do notwork for a baseball team but I do understand business and have been a fan of the Pirates and baeball since the late 60s. I have become indifferent about the Pirates and how they do their business from a fans standpoint. I wish I could become an share owner of the Pirates because they make money with very little risk.(The ideal way of investing)The risk would come if they want to increase their payroll to attract or keep talent.

Lets Go Pens Lets Go Pens

Here we go Steelers, Here we go

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:23 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Wilton
There are how many teams in MLB? Look at the teams that have won...and on a fairly consistant basis. Just because you read a book, you know it all right? All you have to do is read those books and you are an expert. Every owner should do that and be as smart as you are..right Jr? Or could it be that there are other books and other ways?

Quote:
" past conduct of one regime does not predict future conduct of another regime"

So using your own words the teams like the A's or Indians that the Pirates are following does not predict winning for the Pirates?

And what expeience do you have in the world of business or finance? Best I can tell, all of your experience is in books. I do notwork for a baseball team but I do understand business and have been a fan of the Pirates and baeball since the late 60s. I have become indifferent about the Pirates and how they do their business from a fans standpoint. I wish I could become an share owner of the Pirates because they make money with very little risk.(The ideal way of investing)The risk would come if they want to increase their payroll to attract or keep talent.

Lets Go Pens Lets Go Pens

Here we go Steelers, Here we go


I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:48 pm 
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Honestly, in all of the years BH/estrago has been on this board, he has made ONE POINT (and a rather poor one at that). And yet, he always seems to find someone to debate it with him.


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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:09 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Wilton
There are how many teams in MLB? Look at the teams that have won...and on a fairly consistant basis. Just because you read a book, you know it all right? All you have to do is read those books and you are an expert. Every owner should do that and be as smart as you are..right Jr? Or could it be that there are other books and other ways?

I don't know, grandpa, are there other books and other ways? Why don't you explain them to my apparently juvenile mind?

I don't claim to be an expert on baseball. I just claim to know more than you.

estrago wrote:
Quote:
" past conduct of one regime does not predict future conduct of another regime"

So using your own words the teams like the A's or Indians that the Pirates are following does not predict winning for the Pirates?

Correct, unless the methods the Pirates are utilizing are very similar to the methods that the A's or Indians used. See, you can use the past to predict the future if the present conduct mimics the past conduct. If the present conduct is dissimilar to the past conduct, then using the past to predict the future is folly. The Pirates current conduct mimics that of the A's and Indians of the 1990's, not that of the Pirates pre-2008.

Quote:
And what expeience do you have in the world of business or finance? Best I can tell, all of your experience is in books. I do notwork for a baseball team but I do understand business and have been a fan of the Pirates and baeball since the late 60s. I have become indifferent about the Pirates and how they do their business from a fans standpoint. I wish I could become an share owner of the Pirates because they make money with very little risk.(The ideal way of investing)The risk would come if they want to increase their payroll to attract or keep talent.

Experience in the world of finance is irrelevant. This is baseball, not finance. Your experience in business does not make you an authority on how to run a baseball team. Further, your fandom that goes back 40 years, while impressive, does not make you more knowledgeable about the sport than I am. If you were so damn knowledgeable about the sport, I imagine that you would have exhibited that knowledge on this board at some point. The fact that you refuse to discuss the sport tells me that you know less about the sport than you are letting on.

estrago wrote:
Lets Go Pens Lets Go Pens

Here we go Steelers, Here we go


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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:49 pm 
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Wilton
The Pirates or any other pro baseball team are not a charitable organization. Last time I looked, they were a business and finance has something to do with it. The Pirates get an "A" from the business standpoint and a "F" from the baseball results. Problem is, as a fan, unless I share in the profits, there is little to cheer for or be excited about from the baseball results.
The reason I dont talk much baseball as per current players is because I dont follow it anymore.(would like to)If you want to talk about basic baseball strategy such as when to bunt, hit & run ect...I was a former pitcher and used to eat/drink/sleep the game. But like most sports, the better talent wins most of the time unless the talent is fairly equal. Then the strategy comes into play. There has not been much strategy for the Pirates for a generation.
Sorry I did not get the point with the Laker video

Lets Go Pens, Here we go Steelers !

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:33 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Wilton
The Pirates or any other pro baseball team are not a charitable organization. Last time I looked, they were a business and finance has something to do with it. The Pirates get an "A" from the business standpoint and a "F" from the baseball results. Problem is, as a fan, unless I share in the profits, there is little to cheer for or be excited about from the baseball results.

Again, Estrago, your experience in the finance business is irrelevant. Financial experience does not impart knowledge of how to construct a baseball team. Sure, principles of economics are helpful in the discussion, but your experience in finance does not teach you how to evaluate baseball players in order to determine their economic worth. If the dispute is about whether the current Pirates regime is heading in the right direction, then I don't see how experience in the financial world gives you any authority on the subject. So please, spare me the academic-vs.-real world rhetoric; your "real world" experience is worthless in this arena.

estrago wrote:
The reason I dont talk much baseball as per current players is because I dont follow it anymore.(would like to)If you want to talk about basic baseball strategy such as when to bunt, hit & run ect...I was a former pitcher and used to eat/drink/sleep the game. But like most sports, the better talent wins most of the time unless the talent is fairly equal. Then the strategy comes into play. There has not been much strategy for the Pirates for a generation.

Estrago, in this instance, I am not talking about the strategies employed on a baseball field. I speak of the strategies for building a winning baseball team. I am talking about the best way to acquire the talent that is needed to win baseball games.

You claimed that there are many successful ways to create a winning franchise, and yet you have provided zero such ways that have not been refuted. You also claimed that the current plan that the Pirates are instituting has failed in the past, and yet you have provided no examples of such failure.

estrago wrote:
Sorry I did not get the point with the Laker video

Lets Go Pens, Here we go Steelers !

Well, I didn't get the point of saying "Lets Go Pens Lets Go Pens" or "Here we go Steelers Here we go!" in this thread, so I decided to provide a video of people who exhibit a similar mindset.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:20 pm 
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Wilton
Business is business and it is relevant.....if you own a auto repair shop, a Taco stand, a engineering firm, you need to know business. You can be an expert in any of the fields mentioned but you still better know how to run a business. Same goes for baseball. In most businesses you need to know business and whatever you specialize in. Well the Pirates have gone against that trend...their product has sucked, yet they profit. How about that? Why, they know how to run a business. Their latest rebuild plan has to be determined if it will work. Worked for other teams does not mean it works for the Pirates. The Pirates will make money either way because they are not going to take the baseball risk over the business risk.....they will continue to be a bottom payroll team which lowers their chances of having a winning team

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:45 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Wilton
Business is business and it is relevant.....if you own a auto repair shop, a Taco stand, a engineering firm, you need to know business. You can be an expert in any of the fields mentioned but you still better know how to run a business. Same goes for baseball. In most businesses you need to know business and whatever you specialize in. Well the Pirates have gone against that trend...their product has sucked, yet they profit. How about that? Why, they know how to run a business. Their latest rebuild plan has to be determined if it will work. Worked for other teams does not mean it works for the Pirates. The Pirates will make money either way because they are not going to take the baseball risk over the business risk.....they will continue to be a bottom payroll team which lowers their chances of having a winning team

You still have not answered any of my questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:50 pm 
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Willton wrote:
estrago wrote:
Wilton
Business is business and it is relevant.....if you own a auto repair shop, a Taco stand, a engineering firm, you need to know business. You can be an expert in any of the fields mentioned but you still better know how to run a business. Same goes for baseball. In most businesses you need to know business and whatever you specialize in. Well the Pirates have gone against that trend...their product has sucked, yet they profit. How about that? Why, they know how to run a business. Their latest rebuild plan has to be determined if it will work. Worked for other teams does not mean it works for the Pirates. The Pirates will make money either way because they are not going to take the baseball risk over the business risk.....they will continue to be a bottom payroll team which lowers their chances of having a winning team

You still have not answered any of my questions.


And he never will just like Bullish Jr or estrago Jr....errr...I mean Ryann

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:11 pm 
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Wilt
what are your questions?
There are 3 ways to get players/talent....draft. free agent and trade.
No secret. So the Pirates are going to trade for prospects and draft.
Either way the Pirates do it the cheap way.
That may be the way to turn things around....but by no means does it mean winning is soon to come.
How they judge and value the prospects and draft choices will determine the outcome.

Meanwhile they run their business win or lose, and make money....that is their number 1 priority, they will maintain a low payroll and when a player who has talent gets to a point where they risk having to pay them what the market value is and going over their budget, they we be traded. That has been the history of how this team does business...and it works!

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 Post subject: Re: Hey Ryann
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:45 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Wilt
what are your questions?
There are 3 ways to get players/talent....draft. free agent and trade.
No secret. So the Pirates are going to trade for prospects and draft.
Either way the Pirates do it the cheap way.
That may be the way to turn things around....but by no means does it mean winning is soon to come.
How they judge and value the prospects and draft choices will determine the outcome.

Meanwhile they run their business win or lose, and make money....that is their number 1 priority, they will maintain a low payroll and when a player who has talent gets to a point where they risk having to pay them what the market value is and going over their budget, they we be traded. That has been the history of how this team does business...and it works!


If they're drafting cheap, why did they spend almost $10 million...Why would they have gotten rid of Littlefield if they were making so much cash?

You are so full of shit...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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