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 Post subject: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:19 am 
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Don't know who, but feel in my gut that a trade or more likely several trades are going to take place over the next two weeks. I'd bet anything that calls are being made big time right now to try to set up the best possible deal for us long term. Plenty of teams fighting for the playoffs this year need help and we should be in position to give it if they are willing to give us our future.

The question is who is going?

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 Post subject: Perhaps a Better Question...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:25 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Don't know who, but feel in my gut that a trade or more likely several trades are going to take place over the next two weeks. I'd bet anything that calls are being made big time right now to try to set up the best possible deal for us long term. Plenty of teams fighting for the playoffs this year need help and we should be in position to give it if they are willing to give us our future.

The question is who is going?



Who is NOT going??

I know there is a need to make moves and that you have to trade value to get value, but I like the direction the team is going. I would hate to see Sanchez moved. I don't want to see LaRoche moved unless we have a bona fide 1b to replace him. Don't make moves just for the sake of making moves, especially if they are going to substantially weaken us now. As much as I love McLouth, that was a great trade and the kind the Bucs need to keep making. THey did not weaken their CF position, but strongly improved their pitching.

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 Post subject: Re: Perhaps a Better Question...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:36 am 
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Animal wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Don't know who, but feel in my gut that a trade or more likely several trades are going to take place over the next two weeks. I'd bet anything that calls are being made big time right now to try to set up the best possible deal for us long term. Plenty of teams fighting for the playoffs this year need help and we should be in position to give it if they are willing to give us our future.

The question is who is going?



Who is NOT going??

I know there is a need to make moves and that you have to trade value to get value, but I like the direction the team is going. I would hate to see Sanchez moved. I don't want to see LaRoche moved unless we have a bona fide 1b to replace him. Don't make moves just for the sake of making moves, especially if they are going to substantially weaken us now. As much as I love McLouth, that was a great trade and the kind the Bucs need to keep making. THey did not weaken their CF position, but strongly improved their pitching.


Moving Sanchez and Adam LaRoche would not be making moves just for the sake of making moves. Moving Sanchez would be done both to get prospects and to avoid paying $8.5 mil next year to a guy who has become a complete injury liability. Moving LaRoche would be done to get prospects instead of only getting a compensatory draft pick when he walks at the end of the season.

I don't care if these moves weaken us now. Again, there is no difference between 85 losses, which is where the Pirates are headed now, and 95 losses, which is where they'll end up without Sanchez and LaRoche. The point is to win the World Series in a few years, not save face today.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:02 pm 
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It's hard to call who should or would or might or will be traded, but we can examine the odds.

Jack and Freddie are the two biggest problems for management. They both could be expensive next year, but they are hard or impossible to replace given what's available. There are those who would propose trading them for SS or 2B prospects, but if a team has someone major league ready they won't make the trade in the first place. My guess (and I admit it is a guess) is that they both stay - somehow.

Delwin Young could be a prime trading prospect. He doesn't seem able to field any position, but he would be a great DH for an American League team. To me he's the most likely to go because he's valuable to an American League team and not worth much to us because of his fielding.

Adam LaRoche is tough to call. If he gets hot - and he's overdue for that this year - then he could go quickly to a contending team that needs someone at 1B. Pearce and Jones are probably candidates to fill in until someone from the minors gets here. And, maybe that someone is Alvarez despite everything they say about keeping him at 3B.

Jaramillo has worked himself into a position where he could be valuable, especially to a contending team that has a catcher go on the DL. He's OK with the bat - and maybe better than most catchers. And, he's a pretty good fielding catcher. And, we always have Diaz as a backup catcher, and I think that's exactly what Diaz is cut out to be.

We have an excess of outfield prospects. Can't have too many of them, but we could have a surprise waiting there. We don't have very many middle IF prospects that look good, so management might do something to help there and deal from what is a little bit of a surplus of good outfield prospects. But, I don't expect McCutcheon to go anywhere for a long time.

The only pitcher I would expect to be traded is Ian Snell if he gets hot in the minors. With Ian being Ian that already seems to be happening.

And, given all that the next trade will surprise all of us.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:07 pm 
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StanRojek wrote:

Adam LaRoche is tough to call. If he gets hot - and he's overdue for that this year - then he could go quickly to a contending team that needs someone at 1B. Pearce and Jones are probably candidates to fill in until someone from the minors gets here. And, maybe that someone is Alvarez despite everything they say about keeping him at 3B.


I really hope this is just management blowing smoke up Pedro's butt until he gets to the majors, when they'll convince him to play first. It would be a crime to move Andy LaRoche to another position when he has the chance to be one of the better defensive third basemen in the league.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:11 pm 
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I wouldn't be surprised to see NH pull the trigger on another deal in the next few days. Veal has to come back up and Doumit will be ready soon as well. I think we may see LaRoche moved in the next few days and possibly one of the catchers. Get the clubhouse candles ready.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:11 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:

I really hope this is just management blowing smoke up Pedro's butt until he gets to the majors, when they'll convince him to play first. It would be a crime to move Andy LaRoche to another position when he has the chance to be one of the better defensive third basemen in the league.


Really? For a 3B showing virtually no power? I know, I know, I know what his minor league numbers show. I want to see them in the MLB to know that they are not a product of the PCL.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:14 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
jaybee24 wrote:

I really hope this is just management blowing smoke up Pedro's butt until he gets to the majors, when they'll convince him to play first. It would be a crime to move Andy LaRoche to another position when he has the chance to be one of the better defensive third basemen in the league.


Really? For a 3B showing virtually no power? I know, I know, I know what his minor league numbers show. I want to see them in the MLB to know that they are not a product of the PCL.

Does anyone think that LaRoche has the physical skills to move to 2nd? Not right now, but maybe in the off season?


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:15 pm 
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With regards to Jaramillo being traded-

While I think you are right that he has more value than Diaz, I also think that if Ryan Doumit is going to be our starting catcher, we need a better-than-normal backup catcher, because it is almost a given that Doumit will spend 1-2 months on the DL. For that reason, I think I prefer to keep Jaramillo. Unless, of course, I'm blown away.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Decisions, decisions, and these ones will determine the future success of the team.

No one yet has suggested trading Doumit? Wilson? Moss? Gorzo?Grabo? Capps?

Critical time is here and now

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:49 pm 
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BBF wrote:
With regards to Jaramillo being traded-

While I think you are right that he has more value than Diaz, I also think that if Ryan Doumit is going to be our starting catcher, we need a better-than-normal backup catcher, because it is almost a given that Doumit will spend 1-2 months on the DL. For that reason, I think I prefer to keep Jaramillo. Unless, of course, I'm blown away.


Good point about needing a "better-than-normal backup catcher". You're implying that we need two starting catchers because of Doumit's being injury prone, and, unfortunately, you're probably right.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:13 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
jaybee24 wrote:

I really hope this is just management blowing smoke up Pedro's butt until he gets to the majors, when they'll convince him to play first. It would be a crime to move Andy LaRoche to another position when he has the chance to be one of the better defensive third basemen in the league.


Really? For a 3B showing virtually no power? I know, I know, I know what his minor league numbers show. I want to see them in the MLB to know that they are not a product of the PCL.

ZM


Ok, so what would you have the Pirates do, move him over to first, where his lack of power will be even more of a liability? Yeah, his SLG is definitely far below ideal for a 3B, but his defense makes up for that. If he continues to get on base at a reasonable clip, I can live with him at 3B.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Why would I move him to 1b?

If, and I mean IF, he doesn't develop a power bat - by power I mean putting up about 20 HR with his doubles hit - then I would experiment with him at 2nd.

If he doesn't have the range to play 2nd, and is missing the power to play 3rd in the face of Alvarez, or a number of minor league 3b they do have, then he is trade bait or utility guy.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:10 pm 
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Call me crazy . . .
I'm just not sure that Huntington is going to be real motivated to move any more position players. I see it much more likely that he will move pitching BUT . . . I also think that he realizes that pitching year-to-year can be a crap shoot. Having plenty of arms stocked up is not necessarily a bad thing.

Grabow? Need a lefty in the pen and he may get you a compensation pick if you lose him in free agency. If there is anyone who is going to be traded, I think that it will be him.
Snell? Huntington appears to have disdain for the sell low approach. Snell's value is definitely low. Teams are also reported to be looking at him as a reliever . . . that won't bring much return . . . he's a righty.
Gorzo? See above. I'm not sure that Gorzo's value is "high" right now.

I get a sense that Huntington is pretty darn close to having the team that he'd like to field next year and very close to the team he'd like to field in 2011. He'd like to have a major league ready Alvarez next year but that isn't likely to happen. I also don't think that Tabata will be ready either.

If he makes a trade, I see him moving pitching for low level good prospects to be in line for what comes after Alvarez, Tabata, Hernandez, etc.

Personally, I'd like to see Duke, Maholm, Gorzo, Lincoln, Ohlendorf, Morton and Snell all competing vigorously for starting spots next year. I'm also not convinced that Snell and Gorzo could not be valuable contributors from the pen.

I'm betting that NH's asking price for Wilson and/or Sanchez is pretty high right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:14 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Why would I move him to 1b?

If, and I mean IF, he doesn't develop a power bat - by power I mean putting up about 20 HR with his doubles hit - then I would experiment with him at 2nd.

If he doesn't have the range to play 2nd, and is missing the power to play 3rd in the face of Alvarez, or a number of minor league 3b they do have, then he is trade bait or utility guy.

ZM


I don't see anything in his history that indicates he can play second, other than three games there with the Dodgers. If he can be moved there, that would be fantastic, but the skill sets to play second and third are different. I wouldn't be opposed to trading him if Alvarez works out and can play an above average defensive third base. I think he's too good to be a utility guy.

I understand that lack of power is going to be a huge problem for the Pirates going forward, but I'm hoping that they'll be able to work around LaRoche's lack of it if necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:38 pm 
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No.9-- you're crazy.(as per your request)

How can NH be happy with the position players he has? This team will lose about 90 games. There is no way he can think that they can play well enough next year to be an improvement. Milledge could help but not that much.

No, he has not put together the team he expects to be competitive in the next years yet. I agree the asking price for Sanchez will be high, not so sure about Jack. In two years both will be about ready to decline in production and certainly in range. We can and probably should keep them for their defense and Freddy's bat if Wilson's salary can be brought down some.

Starting next year should as you suggest be a free for all with some quality arms fighting it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:17 pm 
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No. 9:

I think that you are spot on relative to the pitching. However, the middle infield situation is dire. Wilson is an offensive black hole, getting paid a ton of money, and in his 30's. The perfect storm of trouble for a team like the Pirates.

Freddy can still play - and clearly can still hit - but his legs are going to be a problem soon. Very soon.

The Pirates have exactly NOBODY in either AAA or AA ready to play SS or 2nd in the major leagues right now. Yikes.

Jordy Mercer ... please keep hitting and move up. Chase D'Arnaud, Brian Friday? C'mon, put out a .920 OPS in the upper minors, dammit!


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:05 pm 
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I dont think the Pirates are done trading. I think LaRoche and Veal will be traded. I look for Snell to spend the season in the minors and battle for a job in the spring. Gorzo will be the first one called up if someone struggles, goes down, or gets traded. Jack and Freddy will be shopped, but in the end, neither will go. In the offseason, both will re-sign, for less money per year for 2 year deals. If for some reason Adam doesnt get moved, he will also resign to stay in the burg with his brother. Garrett Jones will be our everyday right fielder by seasons end. Lastings Milledge will come after just after the break, play up to his potential and be our everyday right fielder. McCutch is the man in center. D Young is NOT DH material. Not enough power. He will be our super utility guy next year. B. Moss will be a 4th OF from here on out. Diaz will not be sent down but Salazar will be when Doumit comes off the DL. If Veal doesnt get traded, he will take the place of Karstens, who will report to the Minors and pitch as a starter. Big Dawg will be offered a job with the Nuttings as director of media relations. lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:12 pm 
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bigdawg6954 wrote:
I dont think the Pirates are done trading. I think LaRoche and Veal will be traded. I look for Snell to spend the season in the minors and battle for a job in the spring. Gorzo will be the first one called up if someone struggles, goes down, or gets traded. Jack and Freddy will be shopped, but in the end, neither will go. In the offseason, both will re-sign, for less money per year for 2 year deals. If for some reason Adam doesnt get moved, he will also resign to stay in the burg with his brother. Garrett Jones will be our everyday right fielder by seasons end. Lastings Milledge will come after just after the break, play up to his potential and be our everyday right fielder. McCutch is the man in center. D Young is NOT DH material. Not enough power. He will be our super utility guy next year. B. Moss will be a 4th OF from here on out. Diaz will not be sent down but Salazar will be when Doumit comes off the DL. If Veal doesnt get traded, he will take the place of Karstens, who will report to the Minors and pitch as a starter. Big Dawg will be offered a job with the Nuttings as director of media relations. lol.


I think Karstens is out of options, he might not clear waivers...

Pearce is most likely going down when Doumit returns

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 Post subject: Re: Trade someone
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:20 pm 
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BBF wrote:
With regards to Jaramillo being traded-

While I think you are right that he has more value than Diaz, I also think that if Ryan Doumit is going to be our starting catcher, we need a better-than-normal backup catcher, because it is almost a given that Doumit will spend 1-2 months on the DL. For that reason, I think I prefer to keep Jaramillo. Unless, of course, I'm blown away.


If management agrees with that assessment then I hope they are shopping him as well. No use for a guy that is constantly on the DL. Not sure I agree. A lot of his injuries have been "freak" injuries. His luck is bound to change. I think they will hold on to him.

I would be stunned if LaRoche is NOT traded. Free agent, not much use to the Pirates, no use to them after this year as he will be gone.

I think they will shop Wilson vigorously and eventually take the best offer. He has a great glove but NO bat(JR, please get him out of the 2 hole) and his range will continue to decline. Regardless of capable replacements I think he will go.

Sanchez will stay. He still has value to the team. Next year? Could be a different story.

Grabow will go if they get good return. Otherwise he gives JR a competent lefty for the rest of this year. After typing that sentence I now think I may be leaning towards thinking he will stay.

I would NOT be stunned to see Capps go. However teams trading for him would offer set up guy return, not closer return. So Huntington would have to be blown away I think.

A pitcher and a catcher could maybe go, especially in a package type deal. 50/50 at best.


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