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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Steve118,

Just a couple of questions.....do you miss McLouth in CF? When you see a pitcher like Ohlendorf take the mound do you miss Nady or Bay? Do you think the Pirates and their farm system is stronger (has accumulated more talent) now than the last year David Littlefied was GM?

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Sure I miss McLouth, how could you not? Sure I am satisfied with Ohly, how could you not?

Do I miss Bay? Well, the guy has a good shot to be MVP in the American League. Anyone who says we wouldn't miss a guy like that is loony. The question is did we get enough in return? I don't know.

Do I think the farm system is stronger? I really don't know. We were sold that bill of goods by Littlefield, too. In theory, I guess so, but theory means nothing until it translates into results. And, it hasn't.

Maybe the system is better, maybe it's not. But, until it shows up at PNC in Pittsburgh, it is all just conjecture.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:22 pm 
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@Steve:

Bay is irrelevant. He'd be gone at the end of this year anyway, and we wouldn't be World Series contenders with him.

Nate's OPS+ with the Braves is 104, meaning he's been very slightly above average. His career OPS+ is 110, so ditto for his career. Just because he was our best player doesn't mean we should have held onto him if the right deal came along. And no one is in a position to judge that deal yet...if it hasn't worked out in two to three years, then make your criticism.

Nady was another slightly above average player who overachieved last year. I hated that trade when it happened, but it was a great trade. Moreover,Nady's presence on the team would have been irrelevant as well, he'd have been gone after this year.

If you believe that this management team truly is not committed to winning, and that this year is the same as the 16 before it, then why are you still following the team?


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:54 pm 
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I follow them because I love the Buccos, I have for half a century.

Because I follow them and love them doesn't mean that I can't criticize them.

Bay leaving is pure conjecture. That is a guess, a good one perhaps, but still a guess. Nady's injury is something that was in no one's crystal ball, otherwise he'd still be here.

Results, man, results.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Results, man, results.


Just out of curiosity, what results are you looking for, and how best to achieve them?


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:02 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
I follow them because I love the Buccos, I have for half a century.

Because I follow them and love them doesn't mean that I can't criticize them.

Bay leaving is pure conjecture. That is a guess, a good one perhaps, but still a guess. Nady's injury is something that was in no one's crystal ball, otherwise he'd still be here.

Results, man, results.


The results in the Majors will come it's going to take time...We've discussed this before, the whole organization needed fixed and to fix it to get it to run at its peak you need the minors fixed first...

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:06 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Steve1118 wrote:
Results, man, results.


Just out of curiosity, what results are you looking for, and how best to achieve them?


The results he wants is to spend the farm on one or two seasons of .500 baseball and watch the Pirates play like shit for another decade after that...

I dont think he realizes you need to build a whole organization from the bottom up...

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:21 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
I follow them because I love the Buccos, I have for half a century.

Because I follow them and love them doesn't mean that I can't criticize them.

Well, if you love the Bucs, then don't you want what's best for the Bucs?

Quote:
Bay leaving is pure conjecture. That is a guess, a good one perhaps, but still a guess. Nady's injury is something that was in no one's crystal ball, otherwise he'd still be here.

Yes, Bay leaving is conjecture, but it was also the most likely occurrence if the Bucs had held on to him. Sure, Bay could have signed on with the Bucs for 5 more years for peanuts, but is that really what was likely to happen? Do you really think that Bay was going to sign an extension with a team that was not likely to contend for the near future? Do you really think that Bay was going to play his peak years for a team that was in desperate need of a rebuild, a point that he recognized at least once while with the team? Do you really think that Bay was not going to test the free agent waters to see whether a contending team was going to offer him a rich and lengthy deal? Really?

As for Nady, if he hadn't gotten injured, then he'd be producing league average results as a platoon RF with either Melky Cabrera or Nick Swisher. If he had stayed with the Bucs, then he'd likely have a year very similar to his 2007 year, which is league average for a right fielder. His 2008 with the Bucs was a career year; he was not likely to produce that again. Guess who's also producing league average results? Ross Ohlendorf, a member of the package of players for which we traded Nady.

Quote:
Results, man, results.

Wow, man. That's like, deep.

Please, tell us how the Pirates are to achieve those results.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:50 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
On one hand, I do enjoy the fact that Jack has been, well, vocal to the media over the past few years (I remember in the off-season when he threw around that the ownership needs to have their own "accountability" along with the players like they stress), but it is also mind-boggling that Jack doesn't realize that the trades aren't for the future. That being said, the guy has been a part of this organization for 8 years now, it's impossible not to see his pain.

His pain can't be any worse than the pain I feel watching him foul off 6 consecutive ball fours with the bases loaded just so that he can pop out to second on the seventh consecutive ball four.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:54 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Wilton....results talk, b.s. walks.

You're absolutely right. We had McLouth, Bay and Nady last year, all having great seasons, and they led us all to another losing record.

Quote:
We've been hearing the same song and dance for years now, and also all of the arguments. Different regime, these guys are smarter, the old guys were bums, etc., etc., etc., etc., every year more trades, every year more reasons why this time it's "different".

But, until these trades for prospects deals start to pay off, it has yet to be proven. When and IF it does, then Jack's type of argument will be moot.

But, until it does, he makes a good point, and playing for this organization for the past nine years and seeing the same movie each year has earned him the right to criticize.

You and Wilson don't seem to understand that the Pirates haven't been losing in spite of Jack's play. They've been losing, in part, BECAUSE of it. Not that he hasn't had plenty of help along the way....

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