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 Post subject: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:01 am 
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I will preface this by saying I am a big fan of Jack and would hate to see him go. He is one of our guys that is worth the price of watching. That said, it is time for him to man-up and cut the crap about how he isn't happy about these trades. He chose this business and makes more in on year than I will in 7 lifetimes. Let him give me his dough and take a job making 40 grand a year while watching others in my "profession" actually lose their jobs. After all, these guys who were traded still have their jobs and their salaries unlike the host of others in our country who don't.

You ain't the GM Jack.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:10 am 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I will preface this by saying I am a big fan of Jack and would hate to see him go. He is one of our guys that is worth the price of watching. That said, it is time for him to man-up and cut the crap about how he isn't happy about these trades. He chose this business and makes more in on year than I will in 7 lifetimes. Let him give me his dough and take a job making 40 grand a year while watching others in my "profession" actually lose their jobs. After all, these guys who were traded still have their jobs and their salaries unlike the host of others in our country who don't.

You ain't the GM Jack.


Over the years I have found Wilson to be a bit of a baby. This is certainly nothing I know from fact, but it just seems like watching him when things aren't going well and comments he sometimes makes give that impression. I think it is funny that when Bay made one comment(the only time I recall him EVER speaking up) about getting more talent he got absolutely ripped. Jack has made numerous comments of this nature. I know he wants to win, but he has to be delusional if he thinks the roster they had was going to provide that opportunity.

I only assume this is the competitor in him coming out. In your mind you always think you can win. Plus you develop relationships and you want to win with those guys. Also, he views himself as one of the leaders so maybe it is possible he felt the need to step up and show the collective clubhouse's disgust with the trade.

Either way I'm with you AZ....just shut up and play. It is clear the current GM has a plan(for once) and he is going about carrying it out. The players are smart enough to know this isn't like "all the other trades they've seen".


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:21 am 
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Funny, Jack was once "The Prospect" that the Pirates traded for when they unloaded Jason Christiansen to the Cardinals many years back.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:39 am 
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This guy is sick and tired aof losing and how ownership/management runs the team. True he is not a GM and he is paid to play baseball, but if you are a competitor and you see over and over again that management says they want to win yet their actions show otherwise, you would be p.o.-ed.
The best thing that can happen is for him to be traded to a team that is in contention so that he can truly know what it is like to have hope.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:39 am 
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Here's a fun article that suggests that Jack was actually throwing all of his current teammates under the bus siince all of them (except Cutch) were acquired in said trades.

http://www.bucsdugout.com/2009/6/30/931051/is-jack-wilson-a-bad-sport


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:48 am 
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estrago wrote:
The best thing that can happen is for him to be traded to a team that is in contention so that he can truly know what it is like to have hope.

One of the many ironies in this whole situation is that both Littlefield and Huntington have been trying to do just that for the better part of two years. If Jack's value as a player was remotely close to the amount of money he's earning, he would've been among the first to go.

It would be a delicious irony right now if he had to play out his contract as the one guy Pittsburgh couldn't trade.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:51 am 
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You still have the hand's down best moniker of any board I have ever been on.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:28 pm 
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I think Jack has a valid point....and I don't disagree with him.

This trade be OK, but the others? We got nothing for Jason Bay, and even less for X Nady. And, what exactly did we improve with the Nate McLouth deal? A bunch of single A ball players, not all of them healthy.

It would be different if this constant revolving door was paying off, but it isn't. It just isn't working. And, until or if ever it does, the criticism will be valid.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:37 pm 
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On one hand, I do enjoy the fact that Jack has been, well, vocal to the media over the past few years (I remember in the off-season when he threw around that the ownership needs to have their own "accountability" along with the players like they stress), but it is also mind-boggling that Jack doesn't realize that the trades aren't for the future. That being said, the guy has been a part of this organization for 8 years now, it's impossible not to see his pain.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:40 pm 
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No offense Shark, but @#$% his pain and myopic look on life. Pain is wondering how you are going to pay next months rent. He should be grateful not painful.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:42 pm 
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I'm not condoning it, just commenting that I understand the frustration.

That being said, I don't feel this trade is going to do much for either team involved, so no real loss or gain for either. Nyjer Morgan was probably not going to be a starting OFer on this team when they are winning.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:11 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
I think Jack has a valid point....and I don't disagree with him.

This trade be OK, but the others? We got nothing for Jason Bay, and even less for X Nady. And, what exactly did we improve with the Nate McLouth deal? A bunch of single A ball players, not all of them healthy.

It would be different if this constant revolving door was paying off, but it isn't. It just isn't working. And, until or if ever it does, the criticism will be valid.

Wow, you don't know anything, do you? We've discussed the Bay trade to death, so I'm not going to bring it up. But in case you haven't noticed, the fruits of the Xavier Nady and McLouth trades currently make up 2/5 of our starting rotation. See Charlie Morton and Russ Ohlendorf. These players are part of the reason the Pirates are in the position they are currently in. And that does not even take note of the other prospects received in said trades, like Jeff Locke, Gorkys Hernandez and Jose Tabata. Meanwhile, Xavier Nady is out for the season and Nate McLouth is putting up average numbers in Atlanta.

I know you want to win now because you're old and tired and what-not, but the Pirates were not going to win this year even if we kept all three of Bay, Nady, and McLouth. That was essentially proven last year when we had them playing at their peaks. You're living in a dreamworld if you think the Pirates had any chance at contention this year, regardless of whether they traded anyone from last year's squad. It's time for this organization to rebuild. It's been at least 8 years overdue.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:22 pm 
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Wilton....results talk, b.s. walks.

We've been hearing the same song and dance for years now, and also all of the arguments. Different regime, these guys are smarter, the old guys were bums, etc., etc., etc., etc., every year more trades, every year more reasons why this time it's "different".

But, until these trades for prospects deals start to pay off, it has yet to be proven. When and IF it does, then Jack's type of argument will be moot.

But, until it does, he makes a good point, and playing for this organization for the past nine years and seeing the same movie each year has earned him the right to criticize.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:53 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Wilton....results talk, b.s. walks.

We've been hearing the same song and dance for years now, and also all of the arguments. Different regime, these guys are smarter, the old guys were bums, etc., etc., etc., etc., every year more trades, every year more reasons why this time it's "different".

But, until these trades for prospects deals start to pay off, it has yet to be proven. When and IF it does, then Jack's type of argument will be moot.

But, until it does, he makes a good point, and playing for this organization for the past nine years and seeing the same movie each year has earned him the right to criticize.

No he does not. What Jack does not realize is that darn near everyone that has started for the Bucs in the past 2 years was acquired in a trade.

Jason Bay: acquired in a trade for Brian Giles.
Xavier Nady: acquired in a trade for Oliver Perez and Roberto Hernandez
Freddy Sanchez: acquired in a trade for Jeff Suppan
Adam LaRoche: acquired in a trade for Mike Gonzalez
Jason Jaramillo: acquired in a trade for Ronny Paulino
Andy LaRoche: acquired in a trade for Jason Bay
Brandon Moss: acquired in a trade for Jason Bay
Ross Ohlendorf: acquired in a trade for Xavier Nady
Charlie Morton: acquired in a trade for Nate McLouth

and in case he forgot,

Jack Wilson: acquired in a trade for Jason Christiansen.

So, if all of these trades haven't worked out, then Jack has no room to complain because according to him, he's part of the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:56 pm 
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Results, Wilton, Results. Results is how success is measured.

Jack is right....theory and potential are one thing, results are another. And, the results ain't there. They may be in the future, but for the past decade of trading for prospects there is nothing to show for it.

As a business partner of mine said years back..."I don't want to hear about the labor pains, I want to see the baby".


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:12 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Results, Wilton, Results. Results is how success is measured.

Jack is right....theory and potential are one thing, results are another. And, the results ain't there. They may be in the future, but for the past decade of trading for prospects there is nothing to show for it.

As a business partner of mine said years back..."I don't want to hear about the labor pains, I want to see the baby".

Well, guess what? You're not going to get the baby without going through the labor pains. Deal with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:14 pm 
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Wilton, we've been dealing with it for seventeen years.

It hasn't happened, Wilton, come out of your dream world and deal with THAT.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
As a business partner of mine said years back..."I don't want to hear about the labor pains, I want to see the baby".

I'm sure his wife appreciated the sentiments. :roll:

If all you're interested in is outcome rather than process you should do yourself a favor and crawl into a hole for a year or so. Everyone will be happier for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Oh, process is OK. But it generally doesn't take seventeen years.

"Tomorrow will be different". It's time for results. And, as Jack points out, they ain't there. Outcomes is what pays the bills.

If you are being criticized by your employer, or your customers, tell them it's part of the "process". We'll see how far that gets you.

You can put the happy face on it all you like, but facts is facts.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit whining and man-up Jack
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Wilton, we've been dealing with it for seventeen years.

It hasn't happened, Wilton, come out of your dream world and deal with THAT.

That's because the last 16 years, for a lack of a better term, have been an abortion. If you're not wise enough to figure out the differences between the current regime and that of years past, then you shouldn't be commenting on the wisdom of their strategy.

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