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 Post subject: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:19 am 
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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09179/980413-63.stm

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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:30 am 
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Thanks for posting. I largely agree w/ this and think we are on the right track. It's also interesting to note that through Fridays Game attendance is up an avg. of 2,200 per game vs 2008. The Pirates are 1 of only 10 teams ahead of last year, which is pretty amazing given the economy.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagu ... ance.shtml

What will be interesting is to see what happens in the 2nd half if the trade everyone scenario occurs.

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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:34 am 
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Yeah but Coonelly is a shill for Nuttjob. That's how it will be portrayed by anti-enablers.

Good article, thanks for posting.


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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:49 am 
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I don't know what to think of that. Yes it made alot of sense, but it also looks like he has his book of excuses open. I understand the current situation, but i don't want to see Coonelly making these same Dave Littlefield excuses if this 5 year rebuilding plan doesn't work out. I would rather hear the guy say we messed up and made some mistakes along the road. There is a poor explanation for every bad move that the Pirates have made in the past. I'm not saying that is Coonelly, but i want to see him come out and say things like signing Snell to a long term extension was a mistake. I just don't see him ever doing that for this or if there are future mistakes.
That is one of the first interviews i have seen with Coonelly and i didn't really like how he beat around the bush, and in one part he compares one of the differences between the Pirates and Brewers being that the Brewers own parking lots, and we don't own any on the north shore. I don't understand why there was never a movement towards buying a parking facility if it is that big of a factor.


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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:35 pm 
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The thing is they are in a no win situation. If they sign Snell to a long term deal, it bites 'em on the ass and we complain. If they deal him after his 14 win season, we complain, like we did when Nate was dealt. I am happy Nate was dealt for some good prospects rather than given a big money commitment for the long term, because we can't afford Snell sized mistakes (and big money for Nate could easily have been a Snell sized mistake).
I like the direction, but I would even go further with the idea of saving money from the major league payroll and spending it on draft picks and in the Dominican. I would much rather have that Cuthbert kid who is signing with KC than Eric Hinske. I would rather get Sano than having LaRoche. I'd rather them sign Von Rosenburg, Cain, and every other high end player they got in the draft, than every other mediocre major leaguer that we have making money. Can you imagine how much high end talent we could draft if they were committed to spending $20 mil on the draft class? Our farm system would be one of the best in baseball.


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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Well said.


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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:31 pm 
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That was well put JimY, but i by no means was mad at the deal we made for Nate. I was sad to see him go, but i thought we got a pretty good deal out of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:34 pm 
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I should add that I listened to the NH show today, and Colin he basically admitted that the Snell signing was a mistake. He said we should know our players better. Even after he was prompted to lay a part of the blame on leftovers from DL he declined. It's not Coonelly and it's not perfect, to be fair NH did come out and say they made a mistake.

By way of comparison, here in Boston I have not heard Theo say that Lugo was a mistake even though he will likely be released this week. Nor do I expect that to occur.

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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:07 am 
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Coonelly is alot of hot air. He was the guest speaker in late April for an awards banquet dinner in which outstanding youth citizens were honored. He babbled for a half hour in what was nothing more than a Pirate infomercial. You would have thought the Pirates had just won the World Series how he praised a big turn around because of a pitching coach. He mentioned the Latin America complex and the go green plan. He provided no inspiration, praise or motivation for his audience and the youth who already dont care for the Pirates were turned off all the more.

Untill the team wins, the new prez/gm have proven nothing. They still continue the trend of trading better players for hasbeens or unproven prospects, and they continue to be at the bottom of payroll and the standings. They make a nice hefty profit.

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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:11 am 
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BostonBuc wrote:
I should add that I listened to the NH show today, and Colin he basically admitted that the Snell signing was a mistake. He said we should know our players better. Even after he was prompted to lay a part of the blame on leftovers from DL he declined. It's not Coonelly and it's not perfect, to be fair NH did come out and say they made a mistake.

By way of comparison, here in Boston I have not heard Theo say that Lugo was a mistake even though he will likely be released this week. Nor do I expect that to occur.


That is a good start to admit it. The Pirate general managers are bad mistake addicts, and the first step is to admit you have a problem.
What kind of contract was Lugo signed to?


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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:23 am 
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What kind of contract was Lugo signed to?


Are you sitting down? 4 yrs for 36M with another 5-7M in incentives.

He is 2 years in and the expectation is that they will release him this week and pay him out. This means that he is free to sign for the minimum. It's pretty amazing that a team would just eat 18M.

On another note mlbrumors says the Sox will offer Bay 4 or 5 yrs at 15 before the All Star Break.

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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:21 am 
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estrago wrote:
Coonelly is alot of hot air. He was the guest speaker in late April for an awards banquet dinner in which outstanding youth citizens were honored. He babbled for a half hour in what was nothing more than a Pirate infomercial. You would have thought the Pirates had just won the World Series how he praised a big turn around because of a pitching coach. He mentioned the Latin America complex and the go green plan. He provided no inspiration, praise or motivation for his audience and the youth who already dont care for the Pirates were turned off all the more.

Untill the team wins, the new prez/gm have proven nothing. They still continue the trend of trading better players for hasbeens or unproven prospects, and they continue to be at the bottom of payroll and the standings. They make a nice hefty profit.

Another clear indication that you have no idea how the business of baseball works.

From Shawn Hoffman at Squawking Baseball: http://www.squawkingbaseball.com/?p=750
Quote:
While we’re at it, let’s shoot down another misconception: the Major League payroll is just one of many places a team can spend its money, and for teams at the beginning of the success cycle, it’s the most inefficient place. And while Forbes’s numbers show a number of small market teams being extremely profitable (I don’t doubt that this is true), that says nothing about actual cash-flow. If a team builds a new Dominican academy, or makes improvements to its stadium, that’s a capital expenditure that isn’t taken into account when calculating EBITDA profits. And it’s those areas — along with the draft — that these teams should be spending their money on.


And in case you aren't familiar with the history of the Pittsburgh Pirates: http://www.squawkingbaseball.com/?p=118
Quote:
What happens when teams are forced (or force themselves) to spend money on payroll, regardless of their position? You get the 2001 Pirates. In an attempt to prove that a new stadium really does help a team spend (and therefore win, because that’s how these things are supposed to work), the Pirates raised their payroll from $26.6 million to $57.8 million. That latter figure ranked 18th in the Major Leagues, which is by far the franchise’s highest spot in recent memory.

You see where I’m going. The Pirates were set on dishing out big contracts, almost regardless of who the actual players were. Jason Kendall, Kevin Young, Pat Meares, Derek Bell all became very rich thanks to the Kevin McClatchy/Cam Bonifay throw-money-at-a-problem-and-hope-it-gets-better grand plan. The team lost 100 games.


See also the following:
http://www.squawkingbaseball.com/?p=396
http://www.squawkingbaseball.com/?p=634

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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:25 am 
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BostonBuc wrote:
Quote:
What kind of contract was Lugo signed to?


Are you sitting down? 4 yrs for 36M with another 5-7M in incentives.

He is 2 years in and the expectation is that they will release him this week and pay him out. This means that he is free to sign for the minimum. It's pretty amazing that a team would just eat 18M.

On another note mlbrumors says the Sox will offer Bay 4 or 5 yrs at 15 before the All Star Break.


Wow i had no idea he was signed to such a big contract.
Now on the other hand i think 4 or 5 years at 15 a year is a pretty good deal for both sides, but if i were Bay i would be looking for alittle under the deal of what Teixeira got. I think he is just as good and he is only alittle over 1 year older than Teixeira.
Teixeira got $180 million over 8 year, which comes out to being $22.5 million a year. I think Bay should try for about 6 years at about 17 to 18 million a year.


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 Post subject: Re: Coonelly speaks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:20 am 
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Willton wrote:
Another clear indication that you have no idea how the business of baseball works.

And in case you aren't familiar with the history of the Pittsburgh Pirates: http://www.squawkingbaseball.com/?p=118


Hey Jr..The baseball business is like any business...make money....and the Pirates are good at that. The Pirates also prove that a good product is not needed to make money...that is not the norm for most businesses.
Your links prove exactly how the Pirates conduct their business.....winning is not the priority. Yet the front office tries to sell to the public that they are trying to win. The topic of this thread is Coonelly speaks....and he speaks alot of hot air.

The business of baseball that you presented with your links is not the same for all teams. According to your links, the way baseball business should work is for your team to lose year after year and then draft your talent. So the goal is to lose and lose and you hope all those high draft picks pan out and then build around that core. Well the Pirates have a history including this past year of drafting on the cheap too.

If the Pirates were a public company, I would be an investor. Fans are not investors, they want a team that wins, a team to be proud of(See the Steelers/Penguins) Maybe the Pirates are doing all the right moves, then again maybe not. The only way you know is when the results are there and proven. What they are doing now there is no sure fire way of knowing that. What you do know is that they will continue the baseball on the cheap plan.
BTW, I and very familiar with the history of the Pirates and at least as a fan I saw them win two world series championships.

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