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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:25 pm 
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Trade rumors starting to take a toll?

I remember how unsettled the 1998 team was after a series of trades, and especially the Pena trade.

It took Syd Thrift coming into the locker room and saying "this is it boys, this is the team we are going with" to settle that group down and start the uptick.

This team is not there yet, and I'm sure the vets are just waiting to get moved.

I'm also thinking it was a very, very long stretch of games...

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:37 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Trade rumors starting to take a toll?

I remember how unsettled the 1998 team was after a series of trades, and especially the Pena trade.

It took Syd Thrift coming into the locker room and saying "this is it boys, this is the team we are going with" to settle that group down and start the uptick.

This team is not there yet, and I'm sure the vets are just waiting to get moved.

I'm also thinking it was a very, very long stretch of games...

ZM


I'm doing this piecemeal rather than the long post that I intended after work hours tonight.
Here are some of the things that I find interesting:
1. DK's comments about Russell becoming increasingly aggravated with the lack of offense.
2. I thought that Freddy Sanchez looked like he wanted to kill Nyjer Morgan on Saturday night after (1) Nyjer slipped while trying to steal second and (2) Freddy was obviously swinging towards RF and gave Morgan a couple of evil glances like "dude, you see the hit-and-run sign?"
3. DK's comments about player's displeasure about Nate's departure.
4. DK's comments about player's displeasure about Monroe's DFO and Pearce's recall.

I can't help but think that Russell is wondering (with Nyjer generally hitting poorly) what the offense would look like with Nate still in the linuep. There have been a ton of quality starts wasted due to a lack of hitting. He's gotta be somewhat pissy in the clubhouse. The players are likely thinking that the offense would be better and more runs on the board with Nate still in the lineup (Nate, McCuth and Moss OR Morgan, McCuth and Nate). The lineup is somewhat turned on its head with Freddy sliding down to 3 and Nyjer at 2. Both of their roles change markedly.

There were some giant freaking brain farts during the 7th and 8th innings of Saturday's game. The possibility of discord in the clubhouse is something that I would not discount.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:19 pm 
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I could smell the brain farts and I was only watching the dots.


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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:24 pm 
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I'd recommend not watching the replay. Freddy was clearly irritated with Nyjer in the 7th after Nyjer singled in McCutch. The looks down towards first base as Freddy was going out of his way to inside/out the ball to right field were quite telling. I'm certain that all was not well when LaRoche followed by hitting into a double play.
In the eighth, the bunt by Wilson was not great but it was not awful. The pitcher made a very good play but that play was made possible by an absolutely god awful secondary lead by Moss and an incredibly poor jump from second base. Followed immediately by Jaramillo getting picked off.
Disgusting.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:37 pm 
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I did not get to watch that yesterday, as we were doing "family" things for father's day.

But, simply the description of the play, and more importantly, who did what and how reacted, I am almost thinking it was experienced vets watching the "umpteenth" rookie blunder, and getting disgusted with it.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:02 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I did not get to watch that yesterday, as we were doing "family" things for father's day.

But, simply the description of the play, and more importantly, who did what and how reacted, I am almost thinking it was experienced vets watching the "umpteenth" rookie blunder, and getting disgusted with it.

ZM


It was the Saturday night game. Freddy looked disgusted. Big time.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:55 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
In the eighth, the bunt by Wilson was not great but it was not awful. The pitcher made a very good play but that play was made possible by an absolutely god awful secondary lead by Moss and an incredibly poor jump from second base.

Wilson is supposed to make the 3rd baseman field the ball. If he does so, there is no possible play at third.

Wilson put the ball down on the third base side, but it was too soft and was just a few feet from the pitcher. Not a particularly good bunt. This is one of those times where he needed to bunt it hard enough to get it past the pitcher.


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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:14 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:

It was the Saturday night game. Freddy looked disgusted. Big time.


Well then, I certainly was distracted. Firepit night in the backyard. Kids, friends, guitars, and a couple drams of the Scottish distillaries...

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
In the eighth, the bunt by Wilson was not great but it was not awful. The pitcher made a very good play but that play was made possible by an absolutely god awful secondary lead by Moss and an incredibly poor jump from second base.

Wilson is supposed to make the 3rd baseman field the ball. If he does so, there is no possible play at third.

Wilson put the ball down on the third base side, but it was too soft and was just a few feet from the pitcher. Not a particularly good bunt. This is one of those times where he needed to bunt it hard enough to get it past the pitcher.


Bucfan -
Looking back at the play, it looks as though Colorado's defense was to have the third baseman stay home, SS covered second base and the 2B rotated to cover first base. Helton was charging when Wilson squared.
You are dead-on right with your comment about bunting it hard enough to make the third baseman make a play or, at a minimum, make a really tough play for the pitcher.
That being written, the catcher is the QB on that play. He calls out where the play is. Moss' horrendous secondary lead and poor jump was right in the catcher's sight line and it was an easy call for him. Had Moss gotten a good secondary lead and a good jump on the bunt, the catcher would have a tough call and, almost certainly, directed the pitcher to get the out at first base. The combination of an "iffy" bunt and crappy baserunning led to the out at third. Fundamentally awful. AWFUL. Only to be topped by Jaramillo's ridiculous excuse of getting picked off second base and ackward feet first attempt to get back. When is the last time that you saw a baserunner try to go back to the bag and slide in feet first? AWFUL. Funny thing is . . . I don't think that the SS tagged Jaramillo. I'm sure that ump called him out because (a) the throw beat Jaramillo and (b) the ugliness of Jaramillo's effort didn't deserve a safe call.
Jaramillo compounded the freaking error by calling for an 0-2 inside pitch by Grabow to the catcher which ended up in the CF seats and tying the game at 7-7. Christ Almighty . . . stupid freaking call. Grabow had just missed over the heart of the plate and got away with a mistake and you come back with a call which requires him to place it with pinpoint accurace inside? No. You come back on the outside of the plate . . away and outside of the strike zone. If you miss, you miss wide. Just a dumb call and a dumb pitch.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:45 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Bucfan -
Looking back at the play, it looks as though Colorado's defense was to have the third baseman stay home, SS covered second base and the 2B rotated to cover first base. Helton was charging when Wilson squared.
You are dead-on right with your comment about bunting it hard enough to make the third baseman make a play or, at a minimum, make a really tough play for the pitcher.

Yep. That is why the batter tries to hit it hard enough that only the 3rd baseman can make a play. And I have found, working with batters, that when they bunt it with a bit more "zest," it tends to go straighter and does not roll foul as easily.

For a right-handed batter, the bunt down the third base line is a bit tougher than the bunt down first. Still, Jack has been in the majors for 7+ seasons and has practiced this bunt about 1,000 times. His effort was pretty mediocre.

Moss had a pretty bad jump, no doubt. But he was out by 10'. McCutchen and Morgan are probably the only two on the team who make the play close.

No. 9 wrote:
Jaramillo compounded the freaking error by calling for an 0-2 inside pitch by Grabow to the catcher which ended up in the CF seats and tying the game at 7-7. Christ Almighty . . . stupid freaking call. Grabow had just missed over the heart of the plate and got away with a mistake and you come back with a call which requires him to place it with pinpoint accurace inside?


Absolutely. If Grabow goes slow, away, the worst that Ianetta can do off him is to single to RF. Big freaking deal - the game is now 7-5.

Going inside, when the hitter is the tying run, means the pitcher absolutely must get the ball on the hands, or if he misses, miss inside. Grabow's pitch was fugly. It would be a perfect pitch for a hitter who is involved in one of those home run derbies.


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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:01 pm 
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Got to take issue with you No.9 on the Wilson bunt. He's the pro here and he didn't do what he had to do. Moss may have gotten a poor start (?), but was not the issue if the veteren does his thing right.

And I agree that Grabow deserves the credit for the bad pitch. And even if it was a bad call, who says that the bench didn't make the call.

There have been a gazillion mistakes by everyone including Freddy not weariing glasses cause it interfers with grounders(?) and missing cut-offs and throwing to the wrong base. You suggested that the clubhouse may be upset because all the trade talk. Could really have a point there.

All of them seem to agree that this day off is a ggod thing right now.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:24 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:25 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Got to take issue with you No.9 on the Wilson bunt. He's the pro here and he didn't do what he had to do. Moss may have gotten a poor start (?), but was not the issue if the veteren does his thing right.

And I agree that Grabow deserves the credit for the bad pitch. And even if it was a bad call, who says that the bench didn't make the call.

There have been a gazillion mistakes by everyone including Freddy not weariing glasses cause it interfers with grounders(?) and missing cut-offs and throwing to the wrong base. You suggested that the clubhouse may be upset because all the trade talk. Could really have a point there.

All of them seem to agree that this day off is a ggod thing right now.


I'm not letting Jack off the hook. It was not a good bunt. It should have been directed more down the third base line. But it was not an awful bunt. He got it down. It was not a pop up which should have caused Moss to hesitate. A good baserunner makes it to third safely on the bunt. A good baserunner never allows the catcher to even think of directing the pitcher to throw to third. But, yes, you are right, Wilson's execution was not good.
I don't care if the bench made the call or Jaramillo made the call; the pitch call was terrible. Neither Kerrigan nor Russell likes to call pitches from the bench but, if they did, then they made a bad call. Freaking Jaramillo was practically set up directly behind Ionnetta. If you are going inside at 0-2, you come in high and tight and back him off the plate and go back outside with the next pitch. Calling down and in leaves no margin for error on the inside (you'll get a HBP). An error over the plate will be launched. Set up for the outside pitch (offspeed) and the chances of it leaving the park are practically nil. Just a horrible, horrible 0-2 pitch call.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:49 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I don't care if the bench made the call or Jaramillo made the call; the pitch call was terrible. Neither Kerrigan nor Russell likes to call pitches from the bench but, if they did, then they made a bad call. Freaking Jaramillo was practically set up directly behind Ionnetta. If you are going inside at 0-2, you come in high and tight and back him off the plate and go back outside with the next pitch. Calling down and in leaves no margin for error on the inside (you'll get a HBP). An error over the plate will be launched. Set up for the outside pitch (offspeed) and the chances of it leaving the park are practically nil. Just a horrible, horrible 0-2 pitch call.

Every point noted is well known to managers, coaches, etc. Don't make a mistake on the inner half, particularly when the batter is the tying run.

I saw Jaramillo setting up on the inner half, right after Grabow got away with a bad pitch, and I dreaded what could happen. Basically the instant the pitch left his hand, it was destined to be hit very, very hard.


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 Post subject: Re: The Bunt
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Willton wrote:
By the way, Animal, I'll take your silence as an apology.



I do apologize Wilton. Although my silence had nothing to do with that.. had been away.

The DP vs hit numbers in that situation in Wilson's career blew me away. I was way wrong about that and the likelihood of a DP. The arguments that I really had a problem with were not necessarily yours, but those of posters wanting to blame Russell for the loss because of trying the bunt.

There is no problem with the bunt in that situation. I still believe very strongly that the bunt attempt was the best way to get us more runs...at least one, if not more. I believe that had the bunt been successful, we would have gotten one run for sure, if not more.

The other point I argue is that regardless of what Russell would have done, there was no right way or wrong way.

But again, reading back on the thread, my apologies for my reaction to you.

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