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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:43 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Sometimes I just don't understand (my wife would say 'most times'). What is the reason for your suggestion that hustling as a ball player is a bad thing?

Jack and Freddy both display great hustle and if you choose to not like it, I ask why?

Are yo ua better player if you don't?


Hustle cannot be quantified on paper.

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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:04 pm 
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So what? I live without quantifying it. Can you?

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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
So what? I live without quantifying it. Can you?


Wasn't offering my opinion. Was answering the question that you raised to others . . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:05 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Sometimes I just don't understand (my wife would say 'most times'). What is the reason for your suggestion that hustling as a ball player is a bad thing?

Jack and Freddy both display great hustle and if you choose to not like it, I ask why?

Are yo ua better player if you don't?

I'm not saying that "hustle" is bad. I'm saying that "hustle" looks better than it actually is and does not make up for other quantifiable shortcomings. Further, if the hustle subjects the player to an increased risk of injury, then celebrating it seems folly.

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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:08 pm 
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Sub, no one is saying that hustle is a bad thing. They're simply saying that it really doesn't matter, usually because it's based on faulty perception. New Yorkers love Derek Jeter for example, but the guy obviously has no range. So when he "hustles" over to a ball in the hole and dives after it, Yankee fans gasp in admiration whether he gets to it or not, but they ignore the fact that a better SS wouldn't have to dive at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:15 pm 
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Hustle matters because it allows you to maximize your abilities each and every time, so that Freddie will make plays that more talented, but less motivated guys, would let fall. It also allows you to be in a position to get "lucky" (work meeting opportunity) every once in a while in incredibally crucial situations (clutch).

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:28 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Hustle matters because it allows you to maximize your abilities each and every time, so that Freddie will make plays that more talented, but less motivated guys, would let fall. It also allows you to be in a position to get "lucky" (work meeting opportunity) every once in a while in incredibally crucial situations (clutch).

ZM


I agree that motivation is important...it's amazing how many players have career years right before they reach free agency. However, it's sometimes difficult to tell which players are hustling because they embody that motivation and which are hustling because they are making up for inferior or diminished abilities.


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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:57 am 
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Not even close. I'm saying Freddy makes plays that other 2B don't make due to hustle. You wouldn't catch Brandon Phillips (the reigning gold-glover, I believe), busting his tail down the line to make the play I mentioned. Most guys just let the right fielder get it and concede a double.

And how often does that play happen, just out of curiosity? Once a season? Twice?

By the way, you say that Freddy pulled a muscle making that play. Hmm, doesn't that make him less effective for the rest of the game? Sounds like this "hustle" is a very dangerous thing to have.[/quote]

In the previous series, Sunday game against the White Sox, Freddy was there to back up a bad throw behind first that saved a run in a game we ultimately won by 1 run. That's two off the top of my head in a 4 or 5 game span.

Yep, hustle can be dangerous. Ask Aaron Rowand. But, I'll take it over the alternative every time.

Look, I'm not trying to overhype Freddy. I'm just saying you take the good with the bad. Some plays he doesn't make that others can, and sometimes he makes up for it.

I was criticized earlier for saying I don't like watching Adam LaRoche play. Well, I don't apologize for it. I like watching Freddy and don't like watching LaRoche, sabermetrics be damned. I know what I'm watching and there's more to baseball than range factors and Pythagorean expectation. So there! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:23 am 
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blah, blah, blah........... they seem to make double plays, frequently.
All that matters.

This discussion has become a little too philosophical.

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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:45 am 
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Actually, BJ Upton is one of the better defense CFs in the game. As someone who sees him play on a regular basis, I would love to have his glove in our outfield. At this point, I am more concerned with his hitting this season, although his bat has heated up recently...

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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:48 am 
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Prince of Pittsburgh wrote:
Actually, BJ Upton is one of the better defense CFs in the game. As someone who sees him play on a regular basis, I would love to have his glove in our outfield. At this point, I am more concerned with his hitting this season, although his bat has heated up recently...


Granted I've seen very little of him, however, his legging out of grounders, or more appropriately lack thereof, in last years post season left me a bit put off.


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 Post subject: Re: Freddy's Defense...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:41 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Prince of Pittsburgh wrote:
Actually, BJ Upton is one of the better defense CFs in the game. As someone who sees him play on a regular basis, I would love to have his glove in our outfield. At this point, I am more concerned with his hitting this season, although his bat has heated up recently...


Granted I've seen very little of him, however, his legging out of grounders, or more appropriately lack thereof, in last years post season left me a bit put off.


Yeah, but he absolutely destroyed the Red Sox in the ALCS. If the Sox don't make a ridiculous come back in Game 5, Upton is probably the ALCS MVP instead of Garza.

Defensively, BP ranks him as an average CFer. Don't know if that's because of his judgment of batted balls or his defensive motivation, but with his speed I expected that he'd be ranked more highly.


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