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 Post subject: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:52 pm 
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In the 4 game series:

    Cutch: .300/.300/.550, 3 R, 1 RBI
    Nate: .294/.368/.529 3 R, 1 RBI

Pretty evenly matched.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:48 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
In the 4 game series:

    Cutch: .300/.300/.550, 3 R, 1 RBI
    Nate: .294/.368/.529 3 R, 1 RBI

Pretty evenly matched.


Nate has been more clutch than cutch. He comes through when they need him. He also has a homerun. I don't know what the stolen bases are though.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:58 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
In the 4 game series:

    Cutch: .300/.300/.550, 3 R, 1 RBI
    Nate: .294/.368/.529 3 R, 1 RBI

Pretty evenly matched.


Nate has been more clutch than cutch. He comes through when they need him. He also has a homerun. I don't know what the stolen bases are though.

Starting the game winning rally in the ninth against the other team's closer isn't clutch enough for you? Cutch also got a big hit late in the first game but Monroe was called out at the plate. How are you measuring Nate's "clutchiness"? The way I know to measure clutch is through runs and RBI and LOB (3 for Cutch, 2 for Nate). And I'll see your HR and raise you two triples.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:01 pm 
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I know the comparison that you are making so please don't take this comment the wrong way. It just opened the door to me expressing a frustration of mine to this trade debate. A lot of people want to make the trade about Cutch and opening the door to getting him to Pittsburgh. But Nate didn't have to go to make room for him in Pittsburgh. We can debate forever about building for the future versus playing for today. I am ok with that. But if you are in the play for today camp and want to improve the Pirates this season, you keep Nate and replace Moss with Cutch. As I have seen stated many times by DK, Cutch wasnt blocked by anyone. The Pirates simply arent deep enough to block anyone that is ready from the big leagues.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:09 pm 
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Sadly the Pirates arent deep at all...But they had a player to fill in the void Nate made and acquired a pitcher who is in the rotation on the big team, and an OFer in AA with big upside and a pitcher in high A whose control is a work in progress...

I believe this team is better than it was when Nate was on it last week...

Rocco stated lastnight on the post game radio show the team has scored more runs since Nate was traded...

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:14 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
In the 4 game series:

    Cutch: .300/.300/.550, 3 R, 1 RBI
    Nate: .294/.368/.529 3 R, 1 RBI

Pretty evenly matched.


Nate has been more clutch than cutch. He comes through when they need him. He also has a homerun. I don't know what the stolen bases are though.


I don't know about that. He K'd in a very crucial situation today that likely caused the Braves an opportunity to score a run.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:15 pm 
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The team has performed about the same in all honesty. Got buried to 6 games under .500 then fought out and back to 4 games under ... this cycle will probably keep repeating. This just demonstrates 69's point about depth ... both guys could hit, but neither are great enough to make up for the entire surround cast in game situations.

McCutchen cooled down a little more after the first game of the Atlanta series, but his lone hit on today's game ended up being the game-winning run in the 9th. McLouth himself is also getting it down ... he has has hit safely in all but 3 of his last 10 games.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:26 pm 
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MoTownWV wrote:
I know the comparison that you are making so please don't take this comment the wrong way. It just opened the door to me expressing a frustration of mine to this trade debate. A lot of people want to make the trade about Cutch and opening the door to getting him to Pittsburgh. But Nate didn't have to go to make room for him in Pittsburgh. We can debate forever about building for the future versus playing for today. I am ok with that. But if you are in the play for today camp and want to improve the Pirates this season, you keep Nate and replace Moss with Cutch. As I have seen stated many times by DK, Cutch wasnt blocked by anyone. The Pirates simply arent deep enough to block anyone that is ready from the big leagues.

I understand what you're saying and I think it's a legitimate point. I know that some people have tried to evaluate the trade as a swap of Cutch for Nate and I agree that this is not how it should be evaluated. Still, I think it's interesting to compare how the new centerfielder did vs. the old centerfielder in head to head competition, don't you?

Having said that, I'm not sure that I agree that McLouth was not blocking Cutch. McLouth was a gold-glove centerfielder, the teams most popular player and a leader in the clubhouse. I think management believed that Cutch needed to come up and play CF, period. I haven't heard anyone else say this but I think that they were probably concerned about the reaction from fans, teammates and from McLouth himself if they pushed McLouth out of center and into left, or worse, right to make room for Cutch. I'm not sure it would have gone down very well. I certainly don't think that this was the only consideration for making the trade but I do think it may have been a contributing factor. McLouth's unexpected gold glove may have been his ticket out of town.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:38 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
Having said that, I'm not sure that I agree that McLouth was not blocking Cutch. McLouth was a gold-glove centerfielder, the teams most popular player and a leader in the clubhouse. I think management believed that Cutch needed to come up and play CF, period. I haven't heard anyone else say this but I think that they were probably concerned about the reaction from fans, teammates and from McLouth himself if they pushed McLouth out of center and into left, or worse, right to make room for Cutch. I'm not sure it would have gone down very well. I certainly don't think that this was the only consideration for making the trade but I do think it may have been a contributing factor. McLouth's unexpected gold glove may have been his ticket out of town.


This is a good point and one on which I take issue with DK. Today, he reported that the McLouth trade had nothing to do with McCuthen. I don't think that he could be more wrong. It was about 50% due to McCutchen, 40% due to Morgan and 10% due to McLouth being sought out by other teams. IF the Pirates didn't think that McCutchen was ready, they would not have made the trade. IF the Pirates didn't think that Morgan would remain at current level, they wouldn't have made the trade. Given McCutchen's readiness and Morgan's performance thus far, they saw an opportunity to obtain 3 players at various levels (including one which looks like he will step into the current rotation) for McLouth without diminishing the production from the CF position.

Now . . . I agree, they didn't have to trade McLouth to bring up McCutchen so it was not a trade in that sense. But, I think it is being somewhat disingenuous to suggest that McCutchen had nothing to do with the decision making process. If it was Adrian Brown floundering in Indy instead of McCutchen on a tear, McLouth is still a Pirate.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:15 pm 
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I am honestly not sure about that No. 9, given how this management team has operated.

I think that if McCutch wasn't ready, or was stinking up the place, they simply would have moved Morgan to CF, called up someone else as a bench and given more time to Delwyn.

On top of that, NH would be saying, "Gorkys gonna take the place of (the failing) Cutch". And, I still get my power pitchers.

Because, this was about Atlanta wanting Nate and being willing to pay.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:31 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
The team has performed about the same in all honesty. Got buried to 6 games under .500 then fought out and back to 4 games under ... this cycle will probably keep repeating. This just demonstrates 69's point about depth ... both guys could hit, but neither are great enough to make up for the entire surround cast in game situations.

McCutchen cooled down a little more after the first game of the Atlanta series, but his lone hit on today's game ended up being the game-winning run in the 9th. McLouth himself is also getting it down ... he has has hit safely in all but 3 of his last 10 games.


I agree. The team pretty much is playing the same. I will say that i didn't exspect Cutch to play this well this season.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:23 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Because, this was about Atlanta wanting Nate and being willing to pay.

ZM

No doubt, but No. 9's point is on target. Specifically, the Pirates knew that McCutchen is a major league player, with huge talent on defense and terrific speed. At a minimum, he upgrades the D and can take over the leadoff spot.

Now, the trade went through when the Pirates received a guy who looks to me, at this juncture, to be a serious arm. Morton is a huge upgrade to the rotation.

Meanwhile, Locke is a lefty who deals at 92-93 mph. Those starters are extremely rare.

Top it off with a "tools" guy in Hernandez. If Hernandez can cut his K ratio and hit, he will play CF for somebody in the majors.

Three quality players in return, including two at the most important position in baseball - starting pitching.

McCutchen being here to take over in CF was necessary to this trade, however. Morgan was not going to take over CF. He clearly does not have the arm to play the position. I just do not see the Pirates dealing McLouth if McCutchen is not here to play CF.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch vs. Nate - the tale of the tape
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:57 am 
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Well, I think the easiest and quickest way to figure that out is to ask, in either scenario, are the Pirates a better team/organization after the trade.

I say in both cases they are, but by varying degree.

If I can say yes to either, and NH says yes to both, then the trade goes through in either case.

ZM

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