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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:13 am 
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Willton wrote:
Alexandria Dukes wrote:
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I imagine one could feel the same way if we had picked a hard-to-sign guy like Matzek, Purke, Miller or Turner. Not being able to sign such a talent would really mitigate the joy one would feel after drafting such a player with the 4th pick. I\\\\\\\'m not saying that Sanchez was the right pick for the Pirates, but it would be really unfortunate if we picked a high-upside guy and ended up not signing him because he\\\\\\\'s asking for Rick Porcello money (which is apparently the story with Matzek).



Yeah, having the opportunity to sign someone like Matzke, Purke, Miller, or Tuner would suck. Especially at the expense of the Nutting\'s money.

You're not getting it. Sure, the opportunity would be great, but that uneasy feeling that CNY has regarding the signing of our later picks would likely be compounded by the uncertainty of signing a guy like Matzek, Purke, Miller or Turner. Those players are reportedly asking for a lot of money, and they have a lot of leverage in that they likely can go to college if they don't like whatever signing bonuses their teams offer. Signability has some merit: a draft pick is not of much use if you can't sign the player. See Tanner Scheppers and Aaron Crow.


As much as I think NH is doing to do the right thing, the reason i have the uneasy feeling is because I do not think nutting will pony up.

We should be able to do both, take the best player available early and late. There is no reason why we can't other than saving money. Wait until we trade everyone on our roster that is above mediocre and has service time, then look at the payroll. (btw, I think we should trade just about everyone who can bring something back). I think our payroll will be below 30mil next year.

The money is there, why it is not being spent is why i have questions.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:40 am 
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CNYBucs wrote:
As much as I think NH is doing to do the right thing, the reason i have the uneasy feeling is because I do not think nutting will pony up.

Why not? He ponied up the cash last year. What's different about this year?

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We should be able to do both, take the best player available early and late. There is no reason why we can't other than saving money. Wait until we trade everyone on our roster that is above mediocre and has service time, then look at the payroll. (btw, I think we should trade just about everyone who can bring something back). I think our payroll will be below 30mil next year.

There aren't many teams that are willing to sink $10M into the draft. I'm pretty sure the Pirates did last year. However, if you're going to sink half that budget into one player (which is essentially what would happen if the Bucs were to sign one of Matzek et al.), that leaves that much less available to the rest of your 40 picks. So, if you're going to do that, you better be damn sure that the player who gets that amount of money is a very good bet to be worth it. For a high school pitcher, that's a pretty serious gamble.

Personally, I would have picked Grant Green with the 4th pick, but I understand the strategy that NH employed, and if it means that we get to have players like Dodson, Cain, von Rosenberg, Stevenson, Baker, Dermody, and Heller signed and able to bolster the Pirates system, I'll take it.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:51 am 
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Willton wrote:
CNYBucs wrote:
As much as I think NH is doing to do the right thing, the reason i have the uneasy feeling is because I do not think nutting will pony up.

Why not? He ponied up the cash last year. What's different about this year?

Quote:
We should be able to do both, take the best player available early and late. There is no reason why we can't other than saving money. Wait until we trade everyone on our roster that is above mediocre and has service time, then look at the payroll. (btw, I think we should trade just about everyone who can bring something back). I think our payroll will be below 30mil next year.

There aren't many teams that are willing to sink $10M into the draft. I'm pretty sure the Pirates did last year. However, if you're going to sink half that budget into one player (which is essentially what would happen if the Bucs were to sign one of Matzek et al.), that leaves that much less available to the rest of your 40 picks. So, if you're going to do that, you better be damn sure that the player who gets that amount of money is a very good bet to be worth it. For a high school pitcher, that's a pretty serious gamble.

Personally, I would have picked Grant Green with the 4th pick, but I understand the strategy that NH employed, and if it means that we get to have players like Dodson, Cain, von Rosenberg, Stevenson, Baker, Dermody, and Heller signed and able to bolster the Pirates system, I'll take it.



"There aren't many teams that are willing to sink 10m into the draft"
True, but there are also not many teams that will have a MLB payroll less than the Pirates. How do you suppose they add impact players quickly????

"If you are going to sink half the budget into one player.... that leaves that much less available to the rest of your 40 picks"
I do not know know where there are figures that say that is half the budget, but given that, where does the savings from Nate figure into this budget? If you say the budgets are separate, then that is like arguing that the law of gravity is a not a fact.

"... I understand the strategy that NH employed..."
I do as well, but why can they not draft Green, whom I would have been very happy with, and then follow up with what they have done. They are more than likely going to trade everyone above mediocre on their ML roster this year. Their ML payroll next year could be about 20m. I just do not understand why they could not do both.

Why not drop 15m on the draft? Until I hear a reasonable explanation on why they could not have a reasonable first day and draft(SIGN) the second day pick I will question it.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:12 am 
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CNYBucs wrote:
"There aren't many teams that are willing to sink 10m into the draft"
True, but there are also not many teams that will have a MLB payroll less than the Pirates. How do you suppose they add impact players quickly????

Trades? You certainly won't find them in free agency, save for a few stars like Mark Teixeira and CC Sabathia. Free agency is rife with supporting cast members, not impact players. Impact players typically need to be grown in a farm system.

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"If you are going to sink half the budget into one player.... that leaves that much less available to the rest of your 40 picks"
I do not know know where there are figures that say that is half the budget, but given that, where does the savings from Nate figure into this budget? If you say the budgets are separate, then that is like arguing that the law of gravity is a not a fact.

Matzek has been cited as wanting Rick Porcello money. Detroit signed Porcello to an $11M contract with a signing bonus of $3.5M. That's a lot of money for a draft pick.

If you're asking how Nate's salary figures into this, first you have to tell me how much the Bucs saved from trading Nate, subtracting the amount of money he had already been paid this season of course. You're assuming that McLouth was getting paid a lot, and I'm not so sure that's the case.

Quote:
"... I understand the strategy that NH employed..."
I do as well, but why can they not draft Green, whom I would have been very happy with, and then follow up with what they have done. They are more than likely going to trade everyone above mediocre on their ML roster this year. Their ML payroll next year could be about 20m. I just do not understand why they could not do both.

Perhaps because they liked Sanchez more than Green? Just because BA says Green is better than Sanchez does not mean that the Pirates or anyone else felt the same way.

Quote:
Why not drop 15m on the draft? Until I hear a reasonable explanation on why they could not have a reasonable first day and draft(SIGN) the second day pick I will question it.

Probably because not all draft picks pan out, and investing $15M in the draft could be a losing investment. Remember, the business of baseball is to make money, regardless of what team you own.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:33 am 
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CNYBucs wrote:
Also, you say it would be unfortunate if they did not sign a high-side guy. I think the risk of taking/signing that type of player has a better chance of being an impact player than sanchez ever will. So i would would be willing to take that risk, and if doesn't sign you get an extra pick next year.

What if there are no high-side guys? Just high-money guys? Why pay Alvarez money for someone who's not the prospect that Alvarez was? If I go to a car dealership with $50K to buy a car and all they have are Chevy Cobalts, I'm walking off the lot.

Now if they just pocket the money, then I'm upset. But if they made a baseball decision that the money allocated for the draft this year is better spent on lower-round, above-slot talent, I'm fine with that.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:59 am 
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I can't believe that I'm about to write this . . . a first for TUPPMB.

This is written with the caveat that I'm not a draftnik and I'm not going to scream from a mountaintop or slit my wrists over any particular pick but with all of the negative reaction after Day #1 . . . Keith Law (am I really referring to him?) noted yesterday that Huntington's draft strategy could result in the Pirates signing Sanchez and a group of 4-5 high ceiling top rated high school pitchers for the same amount that it would take to sign Matzek. Typically, Law hates any decision made by the Pirates; it is almost as if he believes that there is a presumption that any decision made by the Pirates is dumb. He held that belief after Day #1 but he (along with many others I might add) couldn't help but admit that there was a method to Huntington's madness. I'm sure it was painful for him to acknowledge.

Right or wrong? I don't know . . . but before anyone concludes that the strategy was idiotic . . . take into consideration past history of all teams and I see the logic behind what is being done.

Don't forget . . . Sano is widely reported to be #3 or #4 if he was subject to the draft. If (and it remains a big "IF") they sign Sano and they sign Sanchez and they sign a decent percentage of these high profile, "signability issue" pitchers, the cupboard is looking far less bare than when Littlefield was shown the door.

All that being written, selection of Player A, Player B or Player C really doesn't amount to a hill of beans unless they sign on the bottom line. Initial reports seem to suggest that strides are being made in that direction. We shall see and time will tell . . .

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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:01 pm 
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After reading all the thoughts of this thread, I see there is a plan in place.

Success with Grossman by offering a big (for him) bonus convinced him to sign even if he had already decided to go to college. Money changed his mind because he wasn't of the view that he would be offered anything much to sign. So, since there were no Alverz types available, go for a group of these high school kids with money. And of course pitchers are the premium in this regard. I'm good with the plan.

Makes me more accepting of Sanchez at no.4, but not completely. I think they still need impact guys and they didn't get one unless we sign and then develop over a period of years these young pitchers.

If it works, they will be heros, if not they will not be here. The other major problem is that the plan will delay the day of talent for winning in the bigs. Fans are impatient now and looks like are being asked to wait a couple more years for this pitchiing class to get there. Will they wait?

Sano is more important now but he is also years away. Isn't he 16 now?

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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:08 pm 
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And Burger, I caught the reference to the trouble in River City line from the Music Man. Professor Harold Hill would be proud and I got a smile. So, thanks.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:11 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
And Burger, I caught the reference to the trouble in River City line from the Music Man. Professor Harold Hill would be proud and I got a smile. So, thanks.

Thanks. Glad someone got a chuckle out of it.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:53 pm 
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Neal was on the post game radio show lastnight with Rocco...He said he thinks this could be the deepest draft class ever...

http://wpgb.com/cc-common/podcast/singl ... nnings.xml

You can listen to the podcast...Neal is on the phone with Rocco for a little bit too...

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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:53 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
Thanks. Glad someone got a chuckle out of it.

You have been on fire recently, burgher.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:46 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
Thanks. Glad someone got a chuckle out of it.

You have been on fire recently, burgher.

I heat up in June. :)


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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:41 am 
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burghermeister wrote:
I heat up in June. :)

Should we call you "Larochemeister"?


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 Post subject: Re: 5 rounds 5 pitchers
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:48 am 
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burghermeister wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
Thanks. Glad someone got a chuckle out of it.

You have been on fire recently, burgher.

I heat up in June. :)


It's gotta be the new avatar


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