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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:54 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
:lol:
Your a total joke! How many more totally terrible moves will the Pirates have to make before you accept the fact they aren't run right? You can't come up with a good argument! Crow wouldn't have wanted Alvarez money. The Pirates picked sanchez to save money because they are a cheap organization. So many more talented players and the Pirates pick a less talented player. They even reached in some of their later round picks!

I'm just asking questions, Ryann. I've already admitted that I don't know whether it's a good pick or not. I'm trying to explore the possibility that maybe there are other strategies out there that might be viable. I think it's an interesting question that is worth debating.

Also, I specifically asked that we attempt to have a "civil and intelligent discussion" in this thread. I would appreciate it if you would honor that request and not resort to name calling. If you cannot do this, please feel free to not participate.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:00 pm 
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PF13,
I think that your post goes directly to the crux of the dispute. The anti-Nutting crowd focuses on the lack of spending and the lack of wins at the major league level. However, at no time have I ever read them claiming that (1) the Pirates' minor league system had enough prospects and/or is deep enough to sustain winning over a prolonged period of time or (2) the Pirates' minor league system is no better than when Huntington took over as GM.

The disputes here essentially can be broken down as to philosophy over how to build a winning team in Pittsburgh. NH and FC clearly have a plan and that involves - as you point out very well - building up the talent level at A and AA at all positions. Volume and competition. It is fair to disagree with the plan or claim that it won't work but you simply cannot deny that it is a plan.

Nice post.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:07 pm 
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I'm going to bag the quotes and just answer the questions:
    1. Assuming that the Pirates have a fixed budget for how much they plan to spend on signing bonuses for draft picks this year, would it ever be a good strategy to sign a player who is less that the best available athlete because you want to save budget for later rounds? Under what circumstances would this be acceptable? If it is acceptable in some circumstances, what is it about this circumstance that makes it unacceptable?

I think that it can be acceptable if the choices in the later round are slot-busters, in that they are players that fell for money/attitude/injury/other reasons but rate as higher draft picks based on talent. How many of those slot-busters that are necessary in order to salvage a draft will largely depend on how much talent the team gave up in the first round draft pick. For instance, picking Matt LaPorta over Matt Weiters requires less slot-busting in later rounds because Matt LaPorta is only slightly less talented than Matt Weiters, whereas picking Daniel Moskos over Matt Weiters requires a LOT of slot-busting in the later rounds because you are giving up a lot of talent in Matt Weiters in order to pick a considerably less talented/useful player in Daniel Moskos.

The other problem you run into by using this strategy is that you are taking a chance that there will be an opportunity to draft a high-end talent in later rounds. If that opportunity is not there, your strategy failed.

    2. If we assume that NH was given enough total budget to sign Aaron Crow (e.g.) in the first round, why didn't he do it? He knew that not doing so would cause a huge publicity hit. He has said as much over the past few days. Why take the publicity hit if you have enough budget available to sign the guy unless you think, on principle, that your strategy is better for the team in the long run?

In the draft, you can't worry about publicity. You have to execute the draft in the way that you feel is best for the team. I'm sure that's exactly what NH was thinking when he drafted Sanchez at 4. I just think that he could have made a much better pick than Sanchez if he wanted a "signable" pick.

    3. Won't it be clear to all of Pirate Nation once the draft is over and all the players are signed whether or not NH did, in fact, have enough budget to sign Crow (e.g.)? And shouldn't we wait to blame this whole thing on Nutting being a cheap bastard until we know who the Pirates take in the later rounds and, more importantly, who they sign and for how much?

I don't see how anyone can blame Nutting for a sub-par draft. Nutting does not make the picks, and he's not the purported expert in this field. Huntington is the expert, and he's the one charged with the duty of drafting players. If it's a bad draft, it's Huntington's fault.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:19 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
PF13,
I think that your post goes directly to the crux of the dispute. The anti-Nutting crowd focuses on the lack of spending and the lack of wins at the major league level. However, at no time have I ever read them claiming that (1) the Pirates' minor league system had enough prospects and/or is deep enough to sustain winning over a prolonged period of time or (2) the Pirates' minor league system is no better than when Huntington took over as GM.

The disputes here essentially can be broken down as to philosophy over how to build a winning team in Pittsburgh. NH and FC clearly have a plan and that involves - as you point out very well - building up the talent level at A and AA at all positions. Volume and competition. It is fair to disagree with the plan or claim that it won't work but you simply cannot deny that it is a plan.

Nice post.


No. 9, you haven't heard them complain about the talent level in the organization because they do not understand that that is the way we are going to become competitive. Understanding the philosophy of the plan and where the improvement is happening in the organization will help to understand the overall process of the club improvement.


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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Crow wouldn't have wanted Alvarez money.

Why do you say that? Crow was drafted 9th by the Nationals last year but could not come to terms. He was demanding $4 million. If he went as the 4th pick this year, don't you think he would demand more than $4 million? If he doesn't, he should fire his agent. Can you cite a source that says what Crow is demanding as a signing bonus?


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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:15 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Crow wouldn't have wanted Alvarez money.

Why do you say that? Crow was drafted 9th by the Nationals last year but could not come to terms. He was demanding $4 million. If he went as the 4th pick this year, don't you think he would demand more than $4 million? If he doesn't, he should fire his agent. Can you cite a source that says what Crow is demanding as a signing bonus?

He would most likely still ask for 4 million dollars. But with an organization like the Pirates they couldn't pick him because they would have to cough up an extra 2 milion.


You people need to relize something. I do agree that a strong minor league system is important. I appluad the Pirates with the Nady trade and the McLouth deal doesn't seem to be that bad of a return (Although they could of had McCutchen in the majors while McLouth was still on the team.) I do feel however the return for Jason Bay was weak.
And I also feel that the organization is making a joke of this draft.

They picked a player ranked in the 20's at number 4. While passing on very highly ranked pitchers like Crow or Matszek. But you sorry Nutto-matics are still trying to defend this pick, just like you try to defend any other moves the Pirates make.

With weaker pitching in the minors the Pirates could have used a great arm and then could have signed a great position player like Sano. But they make another move that makes no sense and outrages the fans.

Lets go Bucs! 5th Rebuilding Plan is the Charm!

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:29 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
He would most likely still ask for 4 million dollars. But with an organization like the Pirates they couldn't pick him because they would have to cough up an extra 2 milion.

I'm not sure I believe that he'll still want 4 million but that's neither here nor there. Will you still feel this way if they use that extra 2 million to sign two or three high school pitchers to above slot bonuses in the later rounds? Couldn't it be a sound strategy to "cough up" different quantities in different rounds rather than a whole bunch in the first? Let's say that they spend about the same amount or more in the draft this year, in total, than they did last year but not as much on the first pick. Will you still call them cheap?


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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:51 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
Ryann wrote:
He would most likely still ask for 4 million dollars. But with an organization like the Pirates they couldn't pick him because they would have to cough up an extra 2 milion.

I'm not sure I believe that he'll still want 4 million but that's neither here nor there. Will you still feel this way if they use that extra 2 million to sign two or three high school pitchers to above slot bonuses in the later rounds? Couldn't it be a sound strategy to "cough up" different quantities in different rounds rather than a whole bunch in the first? Let's say that they spend about the same amount or more in the draft this year, in total, than they did last year but not as much on the first pick. Will you still call them cheap?


NO there is no excuse at all for a team to pass up on first round talent to secure later round talent. A true team drafts the best players available, then evaluates each ones contract demands and skill set and signs them accordingly.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:58 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
Ryann wrote:
He would most likely still ask for 4 million dollars. But with an organization like the Pirates they couldn't pick him because they would have to cough up an extra 2 milion.

I'm not sure I believe that he'll still want 4 million but that's neither here nor there. Will you still feel this way if they use that extra 2 million to sign two or three high school pitchers to above slot bonuses in the later rounds? Couldn't it be a sound strategy to "cough up" different quantities in different rounds rather than a whole bunch in the first? Let's say that they spend about the same amount or more in the draft this year, in total, than they did last year but not as much on the first pick. Will you still call them cheap?


NO there is no excuse at all for a team to pass up on first round talent to secure later round talent. A true team drafts the best players available, then evaluates each ones contract demands and skill set and signs them accordingly.


What baseball world are you in? Nobody does that. And they did draft first round talent with their No. 4 pick.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
Ryann wrote:
He would most likely still ask for 4 million dollars. But with an organization like the Pirates they couldn't pick him because they would have to cough up an extra 2 milion.

I'm not sure I believe that he'll still want 4 million but that's neither here nor there. Will you still feel this way if they use that extra 2 million to sign two or three high school pitchers to above slot bonuses in the later rounds? Couldn't it be a sound strategy to "cough up" different quantities in different rounds rather than a whole bunch in the first? Let's say that they spend about the same amount or more in the draft this year, in total, than they did last year but not as much on the first pick. Will you still call them cheap?


NO there is no excuse at all for a team to pass up on first round talent to secure later round talent. A true team drafts the best players available, then evaluates each ones contract demands and skill set and signs them accordingly.


But they're not cheap, right? If they spend the same amount or more money but distribute it differently over the rounds than you would prefer, it's a philisophical difference. You can't call them cheap for that, can you?


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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:02 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
burghermeister wrote:
Ryann wrote:
He would most likely still ask for 4 million dollars. But with an organization like the Pirates they couldn't pick him because they would have to cough up an extra 2 milion.

I'm not sure I believe that he'll still want 4 million but that's neither here nor there. Will you still feel this way if they use that extra 2 million to sign two or three high school pitchers to above slot bonuses in the later rounds? Couldn't it be a sound strategy to "cough up" different quantities in different rounds rather than a whole bunch in the first? Let's say that they spend about the same amount or more in the draft this year, in total, than they did last year but not as much on the first pick. Will you still call them cheap?


NO there is no excuse at all for a team to pass up on first round talent to secure later round talent. A true team drafts the best players available, then evaluates each ones contract demands and skill set and signs them accordingly.


I'm not sure of this pick, but theres a lack of high quality and that is tough to measure...Who's to say how the team ranked their guys on the board, maybe 4 through 30 were on the same level, maybe they were worried he'd be taken by their 2nd pick, knowing he's one of the best, if not the best catcher available...
He's a good defensive catcher with an ability to build the bat...Its adding a catcher to the system that the organization is missing...Lerud and Andrew Walker are the only decent prospect catchers in the system...

I'll stand by the pick, because its seems this team has made a plan are going to sink or swim with it...

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:57 pm 
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\
No teams shouldn't let the first round effect who they draft in the 2nd. They should have drafted Crow or Matszek there is NO EXCUSE!

And no bucco boy they drafted 20-30th overall pick talent.
:lol: When they had the 4th overall pick! Whatta Joke! :lol:

Good major league teams draft the best player available.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:30 pm 
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While I don't agree with Ryan on this spend it all stuff, I worry that we have not drafted a no.4 guy. No one, no one ranked him in the top 20, yet we took him fourth. NH has been preparing us for that for over a week. He continually suggested that there is no difference between anyone of the top guys after the top guy. He has known for some time which way he was going.

I honestly hope he's as good as advertised by the Pirates but I sure do doubt it. As I said, I don't think it was money, necessarily but that's the way it looks. Until proven wrong, and none of you have suggested anything about his talent, I am depressed about the choice.

What about the fact that none of the big guys recruited him out of HS?
What about the fact that he is slow afoot?
What makes him an upside guy?

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:35 pm 
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Just to point out a read some non pirates website scouting reports on the guy and they say he runs pretty good for a catcher. His defense skills have been described as currently far above average and his bat has been seen with some potential power but a poor swing has him projected with poor batting average at the major league level. He is not a 4th overall talent. Matszek, Crow, or any of the top pitcher in the draft are. Even Grant Green could be considered as a understandable 4th overall pick.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:05 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
\
No teams shouldn't let the first round effect who they draft in the 2nd. They should have drafted Crow or Matszek there is NO EXCUSE!

And no bucco boy they drafted 20-30th overall pick talent.
:lol: When they had the 4th overall pick! Whatta Joke! :lol:

Good major league teams draft the best player available.


2004 Draft

Consensus No. 1 pick was Matt Bush. Where is he now?

2. Justin Verlander
3. Philip Humber
4. Jeffrey Niemann
5. Mark Rogers

One stud, one languishing in AAA with his second team, one in A+, one still a prospect and one out of baseball.

All of those players were highly touted. So there is your answer. The best player available is not always the best player available.

And if you call one more member a joke or moron, you will be demoted to the CIA permanently.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:14 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Ryann wrote:
\
No teams shouldn't let the first round effect who they draft in the 2nd. They should have drafted Crow or Matszek there is NO EXCUSE!

And no bucco boy they drafted 20-30th overall pick talent.
:lol: When they had the 4th overall pick! Whatta Joke! :lol:

Good major league teams draft the best player available.


2004 Draft

Consensus No. 1 pick was Matt Bush. Where is he now?

2. Justin Verlander
3. Philip Humber
4. Jeffrey Niemann
5. Mark Rogers

One stud, one languishing in AAA with his second team, one in A+, one still a prospect and one out of baseball.

All of those players were highly touted. So there is your answer. The best player available is not always the best player available.

And if you call one more member a joke or moron, you will be demoted to the CIA permanently.


You stick up for your buddies. You threaten to ban me but Wilton uses the F-word on me and doesn't get scoled. I say someones a joke or moron and I get threatened to be banned? That isn't in the rules?

Of that draft...Bush was a fine shortstop right? San Diego made him a pitcher. Verlander a stud Nieman still has a chance. So it shows you HAVE to take the best player available to have the BEST CHANCE of him panning out and panning out in a major impact on your team.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:19 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
You stick up for your buddies. You threaten to ban me but Wilton uses the F-word on me and doesn't get scoled. I say someones a joke or moron and I get threatened to be banned? That isn't in the rules?


Actually, Willton is not my buddy. We have clashed many times on subjects, but he is willing to listen to other sides of an argument without being disrespectful. You have called several people today names. You are not showing respect. Those ARE the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:21 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Ryann wrote:
You stick up for your buddies. You threaten to ban me but Wilton uses the F-word on me and doesn't get scoled. I say someones a joke or moron and I get threatened to be banned? That isn't in the rules?


Actually, Willton is not my buddy. We have clashed many times on subjects, but he is willing to listen to other sides of an argument without being disrespectful. You have called several people today names. You are not showing respect. Those ARE the rules.

What serious names have I called? I haven't said any swear words. Im being more mature then Wilton who just hides people on his foe list if they have a different opinion. You can't ban me for having a different opinion. Actually you can I just dont think it's justified for you to do so.
He is not willing to listen to my arguement because im in high school. He won't listen to Rod Serlings either.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:30 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Ryann wrote:
You stick up for your buddies. You threaten to ban me but Wilton uses the F-word on me and doesn't get scoled. I say someones a joke or moron and I get threatened to be banned? That isn't in the rules?


Actually, Willton is not my buddy. We have clashed many times on subjects, but he is willing to listen to other sides of an argument without being disrespectful. You have called several people today names. You are not showing respect. Those ARE the rules.

What serious names have I called? I haven't said any swear words. Im being more mature then Wilton who just hides people on his foe list if they have a different opinion. You can't ban me for having a different opinion. Actually you can I just dont think it's justified for you to do so.
He is not willing to listen to my arguement because im in high school. He won't listen to Rod Serlings either.

Serling does not have an argument; he has a mantra.

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 Post subject: Re: Serious questions on the draft
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:38 pm 
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Serling makes good points. He sometimes rambles but does make good arguement if you listen to him.

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