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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:32 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
Ryann wrote:
You cant prove McLouths season wasn't a fluke though. He has some pop and a little speed but his


I would have never used the word "fluke" like you did. I would just look at the numbers and base my evaluation off of that. Nothing about McLouth's numbers, which I find impressive, do I find "fluke-ish", especially for a guy hitting out of the lead off spot. Had he had a couple of full seasons starting in CF in previous years which were significantly lower than they were last year, I might consider it. But that wasn't the case. That was his first season starting every game, and he produced.

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his batting average was not very high last season and he tailed off big time.


Sure he tailed off and didn't finish as hot as he once was. I don't consider a .276 BA (w/ 26 HR, led the league in doubles) as awful as you apparently do. That average was the best on the team among starters not counting Bay and Nady who were dealt away and Doumit who played 40-some less games.

You have made the assumption that McCutchen is better than McLouth, and the fact is, that is just that, an assumption. You cannot prove a guy who has played less than five games in the league is already better than a player who put up McLouth's numbers, despite how un-impressive you may think they are. If you were strictly referring to potential, you and I would agree. But otherwise, I'm a bit more of a realist.



Agreed....and a major part of why he tailed off at the end of the season is because he did not have much major league talent around him!

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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:33 pm 
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McLouth leading the team with a .276 average is pathetic. Maybe thats why we needed to trade him to get more talent that can someday get us to be a contender. I liked him but he was very overated by Pirate fans. Nate's batting average has nothing to do with teamates.

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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:39 pm 
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Quote:
McLouth leading the team with a .276 average is pathetic.


That has nothing to do with McLouth. You're saying the rest of the team was pathetic. To say it's pathetic that he led the team would be saying that you expected him to lead the time like some kind of star when we had never seen him start a full season yet. When he was given the opportunity, he led the starters in BA and led the team in HRs, RBIs, BBs and SB, while batting lead off.

But yeah, that's nothing compared to a guy who has played in four games. Give me a break. Once again, you're making the incredibly premature assumption that a guy who has played four games is better than the above statistics, regardless of how impressive you think they were.


Last edited by TheShark on Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:42 pm 
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McCutchen is better then McLouth its not about how much Cutch has played at the major league level he is much more talented and brings more to the pirates so you are wrong Mclouth is not a great player he is hitting what 250 260 this year with 10 homeruns?

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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:44 pm 
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So if McCutchen finishes the season batting .220, it won't matter because it isn't about "how he has played at the Major League level"? And he'll still be better than McLouth?

Stop wasting my time.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:46 pm 
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What you said made no sense. Cutch won't bat 220 because he is better then or just as good as currently as McLouth as far as bringing things to the team with offense and DEFENSE.

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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:50 pm 
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So we should go ahead and assume everyone who succeeds in 4 games is going to finish the season in that same form, if not better, correct? He couldn't possibly ever cool off, once more than two teams face him, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:50 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
McLouth leading the team with a .276 average is pathetic. Maybe thats why we needed to trade him to get more talent that can someday get us to be a contender.

I am embarrassed to say this but ... Ryann has a point. A team that has Nate McLouth as its best hitter is never going to wind up in the playoffs, let alone contend for a championship.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:52 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
So we should go ahead and assume everyone who succeeds in 4 games is going to finish the season in that same form, if not better, correct? He couldn't possibly ever cool off, once more than two teams face him, right?


He isn't a fluke as far as the speed and defense won't go away. His batting average will dip a small bit to the 300-320. McCutchen isn't some scrub who just played in 4 games he is a true talent.

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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:54 pm 
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BucFan, of course that is correct, but that is due to the rest of the team. I think most people, at least people who board here, are at least smart enough to figure out that McLouth isn't the best player in the league and that sure some Pirates fans may think he is better than he is because he was our best player last season. But he numbers he put up were impressive, all the while it being his first full season as a starter. The Pirates didn't trade him because he wasn't part of the solution, it was because he was one of their only players they could have got that type of talent in exchange for.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:55 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
BucFan, of course that is correct, but that is due to the rest of the team. I think most people, at least people who board here, are at least smart enough to figure out that McLouth isn't the best player in the league and that sure some Pirates fans may think he is better than he is because he was our best player last season. But he numbers he put up were impressive, all the while it being his first full season as a starter. The Pirates didn't trade him because he wasn't part of the solution, it was because he was one of their only players they could have got that type of talent in exchange for.

So what are you arguing about? I said we traded him because we got good talent for a guy who was somewhat overated. And Cutch can bring what Clouth could this season.

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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:57 pm 
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I'm arguing your ridiculous, premature, incorrect point that McCutchen is better than McLouth (not that he has the potential to be) based on less than five games of big league experience.

But I'm done with that now. If you don't get it, you don't get it.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:58 pm 
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I said he brings more. He is faster plays better defense covers more ground and can hit close to as good as Mclouth.

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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:03 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
I'm arguing your ridiculous, premature, incorrect point that McCutchen is better than McLouth (not that he has the potential to be) based on less than five games of big league experience.

Okay, fair point. It is unfair to both McLouth and McCutchen to compare them and determine that McCutchen is better.

However, Shark, we do know the following:

(1) At age 22, McLouth was in AA Altoona. McCutchen is in the majors.

(2) McCutchen has more speed than McLouth.

(3) McCutchen has more range in CF than McLouth.

(4) McCutchen has a better arm in CF than McLouth.

Those points are not really in dispute. Moreover, McCutchen is projected as an offensive force due to his batting eye, bat speed, foot speed and developing power.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Thus, my point about talented.

Not, please note Shark, performance.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:19 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Okay, fair point. It is unfair to both McLouth and McCutchen to compare them and determine that McCutchen is better.

However, Shark, we do know the following:

(1) At age 22, McLouth was in AA Altoona. McCutchen is in the majors.

(2) McCutchen has more speed than McLouth.

(3) McCutchen has more range in CF than McLouth.

(4) McCutchen has a better arm in CF than McLouth.



Bucfan - all of those are quality, accurate points, and all of them point largely to the point that McCutchen has loads more upside and potential than McLouth did at that age or currently. And I have said that I agree with that a number of times throughout the thread. My problem is saying that, based on four games, potential (because it is just that, potential) aside, a guy is BETTER than another guy who put up the numbers he did over the course of a full season. That is simply ridiculous and not accurate. I think you realize this and I was more just disputing it with Ryann who apparently thinks he is currently better. I want to see McCutchen's numbers after a full season's work before I make that bold of a statement.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate McLouth Trade
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:27 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Shark,

Nate will be in his optimum position in Atlanta. He is a real assest in the leadoff role because of his power and smart baserunning ability. He is misplaced in the 3 hole here, and I suspect staying here he would continue to hit about .250-ish with some HR power. In Atlanta in the leadoff spot, I can see him getting back close to a .280-.290 hitter with power.

While 4 games does not the player make, McCutch is certainly more talented than Nate. Of course, that has to translate to production, but its a good start.

Its like watching Dave Parker for the first time. He fouled two pitches in his first 25 BP swings as a Pirate, but everyone watching him "knew" he was a star. Same with Alvarez. Same with Cutch.


ZM

I knew that McCutchen was supposed to be fast, but my GOD he can fly. Makes Nyjer look like he's plodding, IMO. I'm trying to remember a Pirate I've ever seen who was faster, but I'm coming up empty. With that kind of speed and the strike zone judgment he showed in the minors, any power that he may develop is just gravy.

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