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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:20 pm 
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It's not about how bad behind the plate Walker, Paulino or Doumit may be. The point is, Doumit and Paulino are pretty bad and they were given far more chances than Walker. I think the move of Walker to third is one in a litany of mistakes made by Littlefield.


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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:23 pm 
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Zane41 wrote:
It's not about how bad behind the plate Walker, Paulino or Doumit may be. The point is, Doumit and Paulino are pretty bad and they were given far more chances than Walker. I think the move of Walker to third is one in a litany of mistakes made by Littlefield.


It will not be a mistake if Doumit and Walker are both on the field at the same time, and hitting well.

I would be even more stoked about the Pirates prospects if a certain switch-hitting catcher now in high A ball was on one of the Pirates' minor league teams.


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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:34 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Zane41 wrote:
It's not about how bad behind the plate Walker, Paulino or Doumit may be. The point is, Doumit and Paulino are pretty bad and they were given far more chances than Walker. I think the move of Walker to third is one in a litany of mistakes made by Littlefield.


It will not be a mistake if Doumit and Walker are both on the field at the same time, and hitting well.

I would be even more stoked about the Pirates prospects if a certain switch-hitting catcher now in high A ball was on one of the Pirates' minor league teams.


True but don't you feel that catche is the thinnest position in the Pirates system? And that's saying something.
Also if the "two bats in the lineup" thing holds true, Littlefield still deserves criticism. He would have been planning a Paulino-Walker thing. If it's Doumit-Walker, that was in spite of Littlefield.


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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:02 pm 
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Zane41 wrote:

True but don't you feel that catche is the thinnest position in the Pirates system?


No no no no and no. Shortstop and starting pitching are much thinner. And, I might add, if Walker were not a 3bman now, 3rd would be the thinnest.

Actually, catcher is no thinner than any other position in our organization, IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:59 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
[One is a former shortstop who might be suited for third base. Which one do you move?

The answer should be obvious.


And, the former shortstop would be?????

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:06 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Zane41 wrote:

True but don't you feel that catche is the thinnest position in the Pirates system?


No no no no and no. Shortstop and starting pitching are much thinner. And, I might add, if Walker were not a 3bman now, 3rd would be the thinnest.

Actually, catcher is no thinner than any other position in our organization, IMHO.


I think it speaks volumes about the depth of the minor league system that there are that many positions of weakness. Hopefully trading Bay, Marte, etc. can bring back some prospects.


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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:07 pm 
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Zane41 wrote:
It's not about how bad behind the plate Walker, Paulino or Doumit may be. The point is, Doumit and Paulino are pretty bad and they were given far more chances than Walker. I think the move of Walker to third is one in a litany of mistakes made by Littlefield.


Yes, it is ALL about how bad they were behind the plate, combined with how each of them might perform at other positions. The Pirates saw enough potential in Paulino to keep him behind the plate. They tried to move Doumit, but this year determined that he was more valuable behind the plate, given Paulino's shortcomings and the presence of Nady, Pearce and LaRoche. The scouting reports on Walker's defense were very bad. I don't remember a bunch of very bad scouting reports on Paulino or Doumit. On top of that, Walker is the best athlete of the three, so he is the most likely to succeed at a new position.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:10 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
[One is a former shortstop who might be suited for third base. Which one do you move?

The answer should be obvious.


And, the former shortstop would be?????

ZM

Walker. He didn't start catching until his junior year of high school. Some guys can succeed behind the plate with a start that late, or even later, but it appears that Walker wasn't one of them. Catching is a tough gig. Ask No. 9.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 2:24 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Walker. He didn't start catching until his junior year of high school. Some guys can succeed behind the plate with a start that late, or even later, but it appears that Walker wasn't one of them. Catching is a tough gig. Ask No. 9.


You've got to be kidding. Walker was a catcher all through his career. You want to put some play as a superior athelete as a sophomore as evidence that he wasn't a catcher, then well, that says a lot.

I can tell you from talking on a more than a few occasions with Claire Altimus (his HS coach) that Walker was considered a catcher by virtually all scouts. He was never considered a SS, 2nd, or 3b player in the eyes of scouts. He was considered a DI wide reciever though.

Really sisy, this one is easy. He was drafted as a switch hitting catcher. The Pirates at the time were thought to be very deep at catcher, and he was moved to 3b because of his exceptional atheletic abiltity.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:37 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Walker. He didn't start catching until his junior year of high school. Some guys can succeed behind the plate with a start that late, or even later, but it appears that Walker wasn't one of them. Catching is a tough gig. Ask No. 9.


You've got to be kidding. Walker was a catcher all through his career. You want to put some play as a superior athelete as a sophomore as evidence that he wasn't a catcher, then well, that says a lot.

I can tell you from talking on a more than a few occasions with Claire Altimus (his HS coach) that Walker was considered a catcher by virtually all scouts. He was never considered a SS, 2nd, or 3b player in the eyes of scouts. He was considered a DI wide reciever though.

Really sisy, this one is easy. He was drafted as a switch hitting catcher. The Pirates at the time were thought to be very deep at catcher, and he was moved to 3b because of his exceptional atheletic abiltity.

ZM

Feel free to go through the thread and find my post stating that Neil Walker was drafted as anything other than a catcher. Then, after you find this post...

sisyphus wrote:
If I remember correctly, the consensus among ML teams was that Walker was a first round pick and that he would be a catcher. It wasn't like the decision to draft Van Benschoten as a pitcher, where most teams thought he'd be better as a first baseman. Walker's defense just didn't develop as projected.

...you'll realize that you've made a mistake.

As to your statement that Walker was a catcher all through his high school career, would you care to make a wager on that? Before deciding, think over whether a guy who goes out of his way to find statistics to support his arguments would just make something like that up without having a link that will prove his statement. Wrack your brain and see if you can remember me posting just such a link in an thread at the old forum. Neil Walker became a catcher in his junior year of high school. Before that he was a shortstop.

Now how much would you like to wager? I missed totally on the Derby and I'd like to get some if it back.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 12:19 am 
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Forget it sisy. You're not getting off on this one. You were the one, the only one, to make reference to Walker as a converted SS.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 12:27 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Forget it sisy. You're not getting off on this one. You were the one, the only one, to make reference to Walker as a converted SS.

ZM

Well, if he once played SS exclusively and then switched to playing C exclusively, then isn't it true that Walker was at one point a converted SS?

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:23 am 
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I pitched in a LL all star game once. Then they moved me to RF, I guess I was an All Star picher. :roll:

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:05 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I pitched in a LL all star game once. Then they moved me to RF, I guess I was an All Star picher. :roll:

ZM

You're the one that said that Walker was a catcher his entire career. Does that not include high school?

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:34 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Forget it sisy. You're not getting off on this one. You were the one, the only one, to make reference to Walker as a converted SS.

ZM

Feel free to point out the post in which I claim that Walker is a converted shortstop.

I said he was a FORMER shortstop, which he is. I said the same thing back when he was moved to third base. Now call me a liar and put some money where your mouth is, and I'll produce the links that show Neil Walker was an infielder until his junior year of high school. Then you can send me a check.

Walker has less years behind the plate than I do, let alone a guy like No. 9.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:37 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I pitched in a LL all star game once. Then they moved me to RF, I guess I was an All Star picher. :roll:

ZM

Walker did not play shortstop once. He was an all-section selection as a shortstop in his sophomore year.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:42 am 
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All what?

Look, I realize you have a need to be right about everything, even when you are wrong.

A "former" shortstop is a coverted shortstop.

Since you don't know what you are talking about, Walker was simply the best athelete playing the most important position as a young kid.

Now, don't try to say that anyone was looking at Walker as anything related to pro sports as a sophmore or younger, you'd just be embarrassing yourself.

Walker was a catcher (before his soph year btw, just not exclusively) and, most importantly and RELEVENT to this conversation, was ONLY considered a catcher by MLB scouts when he was, you know, actually scouted for play. That did not include his sophmore year. Or pony league where he played 1b. Or Baby Ruth, where he pitched and played 2nd, SS, and 3rd, depending on the inning.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:43 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
All what?

Look, I realize you have a need to be right about everything, even when you are wrong.

A "former" shortstop is a coverted shortstop.

Since you don't know what you are talking about, Walker was simply the best athelete playing the most important position as a young kid.

Now, don't try to say that anyone was looking at Walker as anything related to pro sports as a sophmore or younger, you'd just be embarrassing yourself.

Walker was a catcher (before his soph year btw, just not exclusively) and, most importantly and RELEVENT to this conversation, was ONLY considered a catcher by MLB scouts when he was, you know, actually scouted for play. That did not include his sophmore year. Or pony league where he played 1b. Or Baby Ruth, where he pitched and played 2nd, SS, and 3rd, depending on the inning.

ZM

Well now, since I posted that Walker was ONLY considered to be a catcher long before you even entered the conversation, what is your problem? Aside from the fact that it's easier to win arguments when you make up what the other guy says? I never claimed that ANY scout or organization thought of drafting him to play any other position. In fact, I think that any organization that would have tried him first at any other position would have been insane. His bat would be much more valuable behind the plate. It's just too bad that he couldn't handle the position.

Once again, here is what I said. You have three catchers with suspect defense. One cannot play another position because he's too slow. One might be able to handle first base or a corner outfield spot. One is a former shortstop. Just what is your problem with that? Neil Walker was a shortstop until his junior year of high school. I said that because it seems to indicate that the best athlete of the three is Neil Walker, making him the one who is most likely to be able to handle a tougher defensive postion than the others. Can you imagine Paulino or Doumit playing shortstop, even in Little League?

Now either put your money where your mouth is or drop the subject, because you are the one who is embarrassing himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:14 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
All what?

Look, I realize you have a need to be right about everything, even when you are wrong.

A "former" shortstop is a coverted shortstop.

Since you don't know what you are talking about, Walker was simply the best athelete playing the most important position as a young kid.

Now, don't try to say that anyone was looking at Walker as anything related to pro sports as a sophmore or younger, you'd just be embarrassing yourself.

Walker was a catcher (before his soph year btw, just not exclusively) and, most importantly and RELEVENT to this conversation, was ONLY considered a catcher by MLB scouts when he was, you know, actually scouted for play. That did not include his sophmore year. Or pony league where he played 1b. Or Baby Ruth, where he pitched and played 2nd, SS, and 3rd, depending on the inning.

ZM


It's pretty common for the best athlete on a high school baseball team to play shortstop. I don't think that should have anything to do with his potential position at the major league level. None.


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 Post subject: Re: Neil Walker issue
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:32 am 
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Mayor Mystery wrote:
It's pretty common for the best athlete on a high school baseball team to play shortstop. I don't think that should have anything to do with his potential position at the major league level. None.


No, but if you have a long jam at the catching position and need to move one of your prospects, the one who was athletic enough to play shortstop in high school is probably the one most likely to be able to handle another infield position. Or would you prefer to see Ron Paul trying out the hot corner?


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