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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:47 pm 
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There's so much wrong with this post I'm not sure where to begin.

First of all, Duke has been anything but consistent. Unless by consistent you mean being very good for half a year, then awful for three, then very good for the first 2 months of this season.

But why wouldn't you welcome a good trade for Duke? As we learned from the McLouth trade, it appears the Pirates don't believe they will be competing in 2011 or 2012. By that time Duke will be a free agent. So if one supports the philosophy of getting a good package of prospects for McLouth, why wouldn't they share that same philosophy about Duke (or Maholm)? Who based on his early success this season and how pitching is generally in greater need, would command a better return.


I would rather see us trade position players rather than pitchers, but if it comes to either Duke or Maholm i think i would rather see Maholm traded.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:48 pm 
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I'm not at all sure about that timeline Alexandria, but take your point.

However, unless you go someone better or the same as Duke, you don't move him. They don't right now. He is the "good" Duke.

This is not like McClouth where you have a star in waiting to take his place.

I also think that the great bulk of the winning core is sitting in AA and AAA right now. The "finishing" pieces to really contending are sitting in High A.

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:15 pm 
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I'd probably jump off the Clemente Bridge if either one of those guys were traded in the next year or two.

Here's what our rotation/bullpen should look like by the start of next year:

Maholm
Duke
Morton
Ohlendorf
Karstens

Gorzo
Snell
Burnett
Chavez
Jackson
Capps
Meek

I'd also be willing to swap out Karstens with either Gorzo or Snell if they can pull it together.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:23 pm 
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Both Maholm and Duke are eligible for FA after the 2011 season. Unless you think the Pirates will be contending in 2011, you have to at least entertain the idea of trading them. Especially if you're not convinced Duke is as good as he's shown this year.

But if you do trade them, you can still potentially have the following rotation in 2012:

Lincoln
Morris
Ohlendorf
Locke
one of the prospects acquired for Maholm and Duke

And that doesn't include the possibility of drafting Crow tomorrow, Daniel McCutchen, Uviedo (the kid in Lynchburg), Morton, Karstens, or anyone drafted next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:33 pm 
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cappscrew138 wrote:
I'd probably jump off the Clemente Bridge if either one of those guys were traded in the next year or two.

Here's what our rotation/bullpen should look like by the start of next year:

Maholm
Duke
Morton
Ohlendorf
Karstens

Gorzo
Snell
Burnett
Chavez
Jackson
Capps
Meek

I'd also be willing to swap out Karstens with either Gorzo or Snell if they can pull it together.


I only have 1 difference. I think either Karstens, Snell, or Gorzo will be in AAA at the start of next year if we don't make any pitcher trades this year. Our AAA rotation would be too weak without one of them. I think Hansen will be the other guy in the bullpen.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Also forgot about Phil Dumatrait. If he ever gets healthy I'm sure he'll start in AAA. He could also be a bullpen piece.

If there are no trades this year, I'm predicting a very good competition for pitchers next Spring Training.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:45 pm 
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You guys must be joking the pirates would be stupid to deal duke or maholm. They havent even gotten close to peaking in talent there is only room to improve and get their stock up if they truelly must be traded at some point.

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:45 pm 
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cappscrew138 wrote:
Also forgot about Phil Dumatrait. If he ever gets healthy I'm sure he'll start in AAA. He could also be a bullpen piece.

If there are no trades this year, I'm predicting a very good competition for pitchers next Spring Training.


Yeah he is one where i have no idea where he will fit it. It is all up to him and how he plays when he comes back.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:48 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
You guys must be joking the pirates would be stupid to deal duke or maholm. They havent even gotten close to peaking in talent there is only room to improve and get their stock up if they truelly must be traded at some point.


You going Rod Serling on us here. Repeating the same thing in the same topic, but i do agree. I don't want to see either of them get traded. I was just saying if somebody says either Duke or Maholm is getting traded i would rather it be Maholm.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:20 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
Ryann wrote:
You guys must be joking the pirates would be stupid to deal duke or maholm. They havent even gotten close to peaking in talent there is only room to improve and get their stock up if they truelly must be traded at some point.


You going Rod Serling on us here. Repeating the same thing in the same topic, but i do agree. I don't want to see either of them get traded. I was just saying if somebody says either Duke or Maholm is getting traded i would rather it be Maholm.


I do not repeat the same thing in the same topic.

I tell the truth about Bob Nutting, and it hurts the feelings of the freaks who worship him.

Period. End of Story.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:24 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Colin21 wrote:
Ryann wrote:
You guys must be joking the pirates would be stupid to deal duke or maholm. They havent even gotten close to peaking in talent there is only room to improve and get their stock up if they truelly must be traded at some point.


You going Rod Serling on us here. Repeating the same thing in the same topic, but i do agree. I don't want to see either of them get traded. I was just saying if somebody says either Duke or Maholm is getting traded i would rather it be Maholm.


I do not repeat the same thing in the same topic.

I tell the truth about Bob Nutting, and it hurts the feelings of the freaks who worship him.

Period. End of Story.


1st page of this topic you copied the same thing and re-posted it.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:32 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
I do not repeat the same thing in the same topic.

I tell the truth about Bob Nutting, and it hurts the feelings of the freaks who worship him.

Period. End of Story.


1st page of this topic you copied the same thing and re-posted it.

Game. Set. Match.

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:04 pm 
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I did not post on the first page.

On the second page, my first post is a response to Colin.

Your claim is false.

Game. Set. Match.

Owned.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:05 pm 
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What happened to the argument that we hear from the apologists all the time - "We're not winning now so dump them while you can get something for them for some more prospects."

It seems we hear that argument constantly every time the Buccos trade a popular guy who happens to be pretty good (like a Gold Glove, All Star fielder for three minor leaguers).

If we're supposed to buy that line when McLouth goes, why doesn't it work for Duke or Maholm, or for that matter Alverez or McCutcheon?

You can't have it both ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:08 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
I did not post on the first page.

On the second page, my first post is a response to Colin.

Your claim is false.

Game. Set. Match.

Owned.


That was to Ryann not you Rod. Check it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:18 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
My question now is who is considered "untradeable" on the Pirates roster?
Is there anybody, because Nate was labeled one of those 2 untradeable players with Doumit.

Neal Huntingdon never labeled McLouth or Doumit untradeable.

There is nobody on the ML roster who I would consider untradeable, with the possible exception of McCutchen.

*Edited for this correction.

Come to think of it, there are some untradeables, but only because they are so bad that you wouldn't get anything of value in return. Craig Monroe for sure is one of those.

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Last edited by sisyphus on Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:19 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
No you won't.

You'll wait a few days, and then come out on Nutting's side.

So, let me get this straight, Rod. Your view is that if I have two couches, worth $100 each, but no coffee table or end tables, I should turn down an offer of $125 for one of the couches because that would be a "couch dump"?

Even though I will still have a couch of equal value, and can then use the $125 obtained in the deal to get a coffee table and end tables?

If you acknowledge that under my analogy, the smart thing to do would be to sell one of the couches for $125, then you agree that dealing players for value, particularly where the team has depth, makes sense. Your sole disagreement is that you believe that the Pirates did not "get enough" in return for certain players (Bay and McLouth, most notably).

Do I have that right?

If so, then how did you respond to the Nady trade - right after it was made, mind you, not 10 months later when any sentient being can see that it was a very good trade for the Pirates?

He hated the Nady trade at the time, but his name was Bullish back then.

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:23 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
No you won't.

You'll wait a few days, and then come out on Nutting's side.

So, let me get this straight, Rod. Your view is that if I have two couches, worth $100 each, but no coffee table or end tables, I should turn down an offer of $125 for one of the couches because that would be a "couch dump"?

Even though I will still have a couch of equal value, and can then use the $125 obtained in the deal to get a coffee table and end tables?

If you acknowledge that under my analogy, the smart thing to do would be to sell one of the couches for $125, then you agree that dealing players for value, particularly where the team has depth, makes sense. Your sole disagreement is that you believe that the Pirates did not "get enough" in return for certain players (Bay and McLouth, most notably).

Do I have that right?

If so, then how did you respond to the Nady trade - right after it was made, mind you, not 10 months later when any sentient being can see that it was a very good trade for the Pirates?

He hated the Nady trade at the time, but his name was Bullish back then.


Wait who is bullish?
i thought estrago was bullish.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:31 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
Wait who is bullish?
i thought estrago was bullish.

I didn't mean for that to be taken literally. Rod is Bullish in the sense that their posts are/would be interchangeable. Nutting is Satan. Anyone who buys a ticket is a moron. Any personnel move the Pirates make must be a bad one by definition, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:06 pm 
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I never copied or pasted anything you retard. Get your facts straight.

Game.
Set.
Match.

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