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 Post subject: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:04 am 
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First off, I know you have to trade value to get value. I don't like the McLouth trade, because I thought, unlike Bay and Nady, he was a younger guy, with a resonable contract for a few more years, and we could build around him.

But I think trading Duke or Maholm would be horribly stupid. These are guys ready to take off. They are where you HOPE pitchers that are aquired can go. They make a very solid 40% of our rotation. There is no need to trade them for any more pitching. We have a very solid rotation already and have the makings for a great one. After these two, we have a number of young guys who could make up the other 60% of the rotation down the road, beginning with Snell, Ohlendorf, and Karstens. Throw Gorzzy, McCutchen, Lincoln, Moskos, and Morton, just to name a few.

While you can never have enough pitching, I think the Bucs are poised to have a great rotation for a while.

In my opinion, Keep Duke and Maholm to anchor that rotation..

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:18 am 
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In all the talk of trading people, rarely, if ever, has anyone suggested trading these two guys. It's because SP is too hard to find. When you develop some quality here it is so valuable, you can't go without them. Sure, if a no.4 or 5 guy who has reached his ceiling, and can be replaced is wanted, then you go. But not the best starting pitchers on your sfaff.

Plus they are both young and have many more years of quality service to provide if they servive serious injury.

We should get Lincoln and the new guy, Morton, up and give them a chance to see if they might be ready for next season. That probably won't happen unless Snell falls flat or we have a serious injury. But isn't nice to know we have some choices now in the minors. September is coming.

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:56 am 
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Yeah, trade 'em both if you get a good offer. I think I would rather have 1 great prospect for them than a package though. I'd do Justin Smoak for Duke or Maholum and Grabow. Suddenly our future team would look awesome with Alverez, Smoak and Sano (hopefully) in the infield and Cutch, Tabata, and Gorkys in the outfield.
After that go get a pitching prospect or two for whichever of Duke and Maholum you didn't trade.
If only we had Weiters....


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:49 pm 
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Starting pitching has become an area of depth for the team. The Pirates will be moving Brad Lincoln up to AAA soon, reports indicate, and they would have 4 potential replacement starters in Indianapolis (Lincoln, McCutchen, Morton and Gorzellany).

If the Pirates get significant return for a pitcher, then they would need to make the deal. The positions of need are 1B, SS, and 2B. Realistically, if the Pirates are offered a legitimate player at one of those positions, then they would pull the trigger.

In fact, the only two positions where the Pirates have depth are pitching and catcher.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:54 pm 
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The pirates would be stupid to trade Duke or Maholm. They havent even gotten close to peaking at their talent. If they are going to trade them wait till they are the best their going to get to maximize the return.

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:08 pm 
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I just know i will be really pissed if Duke gets traded away. I've always like him about the best of the starting pitchers.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:32 pm 
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Just who is suggesting a trade?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:36 pm 
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With the problems the Pirates have had developing starting pitching, I think they should hold on to the good guys they've got...


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:37 pm 
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My question now is who is considered "untradeable" on the Pirates roster?
Is there anybody, because Nate was labeled one of those 2 untradeable players with Doumit.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:45 pm 
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I think Doumit is since there is no one else that can be an everday catcher with as much talent as doumit.

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:48 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
I think Doumit is since there is no one else that can be an everday catcher with as much talent as doumit.


He hasn't been much "everyday" since he came up. He has spent alot of time on the DL


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
I just know i will be really pissed if Duke gets traded away. I've always like him about the best of the starting pitchers.


No you won't.

You'll wait a few days, and then come out on Nutting's side.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:55 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
No you won't.

You'll wait a few days, and then come out on Nutting's side.

So, let me get this straight, Rod. Your view is that if I have two couches, worth $100 each, but no coffee table or end tables, I should turn down an offer of $125 for one of the couches because that would be a "couch dump"?

Even though I will still have a couch of equal value, and can then use the $125 obtained in the deal to get a coffee table and end tables?

If you acknowledge that under my analogy, the smart thing to do would be to sell one of the couches for $125, then you agree that dealing players for value, particularly where the team has depth, makes sense. Your sole disagreement is that you believe that the Pirates did not "get enough" in return for certain players (Bay and McLouth, most notably).

Do I have that right?

If so, then how did you respond to the Nady trade - right after it was made, mind you, not 10 months later when any sentient being can see that it was a very good trade for the Pirates?


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:15 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Colin21 wrote:
I just know i will be really pissed if Duke gets traded away. I've always like him about the best of the starting pitchers.


No you won't.

You'll wait a few days, and then come out on Nutting's side.


No if Duke goes ill come egg Nutting's house with you. He should be the cornerstone of our rotation, and he should be what we should build off of. He just turned 26 in April, and i think he has been the most consistant Pirate pitcher over the last 10 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:35 pm 
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Bucfan,

They do have depth at catcher (amazingly. Probably wouldn't have said that when Doumit went down.) and at pitcher. They are also acquiring some depth in the outfield. Granted many of them are speedsters and there's not much power there, but there seems to be some quality coming along. You agree?


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:58 pm 
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StanRojek wrote:
Bucfan,

They do have depth at catcher (amazingly. Probably wouldn't have said that when Doumit went down.) and at pitcher. They are also acquiring some depth in the outfield. Granted many of them are speedsters and there's not much power there, but there seems to be some quality coming along. You agree?

(1) Yep - they have put together some good arms, and have three guys capable of playing C in the majors. Not many teams can make that claim.

(2) Power will come from Alvarez, a true power hitter, and from 1B and 3B. (Cue Ryann in 3, 2, 1 ...)

(3) The thing to do is to trade the most prized assets in baseball - starting pitching and catchers who can hit - into a corner OF'er and/or first baseman. (Alvarez may wind up at first. We'll see.)


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:01 pm 
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Why not? The stated goal of this organization is to obtain prospects.

You could get a lot of good prospects for them......this would allow you to compete by 2015.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:15 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Just who is suggesting a trade?

ZM


Their names have come up in some columns about trades. Nothing concrete. Just thrown out there!

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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:05 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Why not? The stated goal of this organization is to obtain prospects.

You could get a lot of good prospects for them......this would allow you to compete by 2015.


I still think the goal is to be able to compete before we reach 20 straight losing seasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Should We Trade Duke or Maholm??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:43 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Colin21 wrote:
I just know i will be really pissed if Duke gets traded away. I've always like him about the best of the starting pitchers.


No you won't.

You'll wait a few days, and then come out on Nutting's side.


No if Duke goes ill come egg Nutting's house with you. He should be the cornerstone of our rotation, and he should be what we should build off of. He just turned 26 in April, and i think he has been the most consistant Pirate pitcher over the last 10 years.

There's so much wrong with this post I'm not sure where to begin.

First of all, Duke has been anything but consistent. Unless by consistent you mean being very good for half a year, then awful for three, then very good for the first 2 months of this season.

But why wouldn't you welcome a good trade for Duke? As we learned from the McLouth trade, it appears the Pirates don't believe they will be competing in 2011 or 2012. By that time Duke will be a free agent. So if one supports the philosophy of getting a good package of prospects for McLouth, why wouldn't they share that same philosophy about Duke (or Maholm)? Who based on his early success this season and how pitching is generally in greater need, would command a better return.


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