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 Post subject: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:03 pm 
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Watching this series has raised an interesting contrast in talent and philosophy.

The Astros are very old and very, very mediocre. Guys like Miguel Tejeda, Russ Ortiz, Mike Hampton, Carlos Lee, Pudge Rodriguez, Darin Erstad and Jose Valverde are playing out the string. The Astros pitching is going to be simply awful in the very near future. The Astros are destined to be crappy for years to come - we know how that feels and how management brings that about.

The Pirates, meanwhile, are the opposite end of the spectrum. No starting pitcher is older than 27. A ton of power arms on the roster and in the minors.

A huge contrast in rosters and approach. The Astros sold their future last season for a possible playoff appearance and their current crappy roster shows the results. No way in hell would I trade the Pirates squad for the Astros.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:30 pm 
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Agreed, but it would be nice for the good guys to win a few.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:38 pm 
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I agree also but i still think the Astros have a good bit they could sell and get some prospects. Roy Oswalt, Wandy Rodriguez, Lance Berkman, and Carlos Lee. All of them are 30 or older but they would still bring alot of good players back in return.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:41 pm 
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If the astros are so bad why did they win the series? The astros can trade their "mediocre" guys who would be stars on the pirates for prospects if they wish and that is what they most likely will do. And they have exciting young players like pence and bourne.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:41 pm 
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We'll see.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:41 am 
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Ryann wrote:
If the astros are so bad why did they win the series? The astros can trade their "mediocre" guys who would be stars on the pirates for prospects if they wish and that is what they most likely will do. And they have exciting young players like pence and bourne.

Why did the Astros win the series? For the same reason the Pirates swept the Mets: random stuff happens in baseball when your focus is a small sample size.

Pence and Bourne are the only exciting young players that the Astros have. Everyone else on that team is over 30 and/or is no good at his position. The average age of their players is 32. That's not a good number for a non-contender. The Astros have nothing to look forward to outside of Pence and Bourne, as the rest of their players are declining and the team has nothing in its farm system. Amazingly enough, the Astros are in worse shape that the Pirates are right now. It also doesn't help that the Astros have one of the worst GMs in baseball, Ed Wade.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:53 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Watching this series has raised an interesting contrast in talent and philosophy.

The Astros are very old and very, very mediocre. Guys like Miguel Tejeda, Russ Ortiz, Mike Hampton, Carlos Lee, Pudge Rodriguez, Darin Erstad and Jose Valverde are playing out the string. The Astros pitching is going to be simply awful in the very near future. The Astros are destined to be crappy for years to come - we know how that feels and how management brings that about.

The Pirates, meanwhile, are the opposite end of the spectrum. No starting pitcher is older than 27. A ton of power arms on the roster and in the minors.

A huge contrast in rosters and approach. The Astros sold their future last season for a possible playoff appearance and their current crappy roster shows the results. No way in hell would I trade the Pirates squad for the Astros.


And the Astros payroll is over $100mil. They'll be big time sellers soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:56 am 
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Eddie wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Watching this series has raised an interesting contrast in talent and philosophy.

The Astros are very old and very, very mediocre. Guys like Miguel Tejeda, Russ Ortiz, Mike Hampton, Carlos Lee, Pudge Rodriguez, Darin Erstad and Jose Valverde are playing out the string. The Astros pitching is going to be simply awful in the very near future. The Astros are destined to be crappy for years to come - we know how that feels and how management brings that about.

The Pirates, meanwhile, are the opposite end of the spectrum. No starting pitcher is older than 27. A ton of power arms on the roster and in the minors.

A huge contrast in rosters and approach. The Astros sold their future last season for a possible playoff appearance and their current crappy roster shows the results. No way in hell would I trade the Pirates squad for the Astros.


And the Astros payroll is over $100mil. They'll be big time sellers soon.


I also think they will be big winners when they do sell, because they have alot of players that could help top teams out pretty big time.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:12 am 
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Colin21 wrote:
Eddie wrote:
And the Astros payroll is over $100mil. They'll be big time sellers soon.


I also think they will be big winners when they do sell, because they have alot of players that could help top teams out pretty big time.

Not likely. Wade is not very good at recognizing the needs of his team, and I have my doubts that he will receive the prospects the Astros so desperately need.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:15 am 
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Willton wrote:
Colin21 wrote:
Eddie wrote:
And the Astros payroll is over $100mil. They'll be big time sellers soon.


I also think they will be big winners when they do sell, because they have alot of players that could help top teams out pretty big time.

Not likely. Wade is not very good at recognizing the needs of his team, and I have my doubts that he will receive the prospects the Astros so desperately need.


That is true. Just because they have the players deserving of good talent doesn't mean they will make the smart moves to get it.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:49 pm 
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Astros will trade their older star players for great prospects. Then in the offseason they will sign decent free agents since the team does spend a lot of money. Then the astros talent will breeze through the minors and be in the big leagues in 2 years max. Then they will be better then the pirates. The astros probably will get high end prospects in AAA.

But if there was one guy I wish was on the pirates it would be Hunter Pence he is young with lots of upside. He has power speed and has hit for average very good this year. He is a fierce competitor and great to the fans.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:59 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Astros will trade their older star players for great prospects. Then in the offseason they will sign decent free agents since the team does spend a lot of money. Then the astros talent will breeze through the minors and be in the big leagues in 2 years max. Then they will be better then the pirates. The astros probably will get high end prospects in AAA.

But if there was one guy I wish was on the pirates it would be Hunter Pence he is young with lots of upside. He has power speed and has hit for average very good this year. He is a fierce competitor and great to the fans.

You're basing this trenchant analysis on what? The Astros peerless history of drafting and developing players over the past 5 years? Do you even know where to look for organizational rankings?

It amuses me to no end when guys latch on to one of the few organizations in demonstrably worse shape than the Pirates and construct flyweight arguments as to why they're going places while the Pirates are not.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:01 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Astros will trade their older star players for great prospects. Then in the offseason they will sign decent free agents since the team does spend a lot of money. Then the astros talent will breeze through the minors and be in the big leagues in 2 years max. Then they will be better then the pirates. The astros probably will get high end prospects in AAA.

Okay, Miss Cleo. Whatever you say. :lol:

Apparently your disdain for the Pirates has colored your objectivity. The Astros are in for a long rebuild.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:31 pm 
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I think the owner and Wade honestly think they can win, if they add at the deadline, a la 2008.

Until I was edumacated here, I might have thought the same way.

The 'Stros seem to think they can win in a mediocre division.

I don't see how they can survive competatively, longer term, doing what they are doing.

I still like Lance Berkman though.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:45 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:

I don't see how they can survive competatively, longer term, doing what they are doing.


ZM


Short answer: they can't.

As for moving their core players for "great prospects," Tejada, Lee, Berkman and Oswalt are all signed to horribly backloaded contracts, and the latter 3 have full NTCs. The chances of them going anywhere are virtually nil, and on the slim chance they do, McLane will have to kick in reams of cash to get anything of value in return. By nature, he's not inclined to do that, nor is Ed Wade by nature inclined to competently assess said value.

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Last edited by LtCol Kojak Slaphead on Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:47 pm 
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I love the Pirates they are my favorite team. You people need to face the facts. Ownership is terrible they have made this team terrible. You laugh at the Astros but over the last 15 years they have been 5x better then the Pirates.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:49 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
I love the Pirates they are my favorite team. You people need to face the facts. Ownership is terrible they have made this team terrible. You laugh at the Astros but over the last 15 years they have been 5x better then the Pirates.


Yes they have been, but they are setting themselves up for disaster.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:15 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
I love the Pirates they are my favorite team. You people need to face the facts. Ownership is terrible they have made this team terrible. You laugh at the Astros but over the last 15 years they have been 5x better then the Pirates.

I don't care about the last 15 years. I care about now and the future. The Astros were quite good during the mid 2000's. That is no longer the case, and as Colin rightly noted, they are setting themselves up for disaster.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:50 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
Yes they have been, but they are setting themselves up for disaster.


Willton wrote:
I don't care about the last 15 years. I care about now and the future. The Astros were quite good during the mid 2000's. That is no longer the case, and as Colin rightly noted, they are setting themselves up for disaster.

Yep. Pretty much the points of my post. The 2009 Astros are a bad team. However, what is worse news for them is that they are old - really old. Therefore, the present group is going to get a lot worse, particularly the pitching.

They have nothing in the minors who can compare to Andrew McCutchen, Pedro Alvarez, or Brad Lincoln. Baseball America had this to say about their minor league system:

"The immediate future hardly looks encouraging, however. Between the majors and the recent draft class, the farm system has been gutted in recent years by trades, the loss of draft picks and the unwillingness of owner Drayton McLane to pony up signing bonus money that might have cushioned the fall.

... The aftermath has been tough to stomach. Astros minor league affiliates combined for a disturbing .397 winning percentage in 2008, easily the worst mark in baseball. Scouts from other organizations say they have to search far and wide to find Houston prospects who might be big league contributors.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/pr ... 67432.html


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting contrast - Pirates vs. Astros
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:17 pm 
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The Astros have Jason Castro in their farm system, and that's about it. The Astros are in for a long period of bottom feeding. I give my condolences to their fans.

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