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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:02 pm 
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As Wilton is noting, even if Andy Laroche continues to have only very limited HR power, he is still a valuable third baseman. OBP is a slightly better indicator of offensive production than slugging. Players with high OBP = run production. End of story.

Laroche is also a decent fielder at third. His miserable first week aside, he has been one of the most consistent defenders for the Pirates. He makes the easy plays, and the occasional great play (picking up the bunt and gunning the runner, going well into foul territory this week to get the ball and throw out the runner at first).

In other words, if he continues his present production, he is a good third baseman. And you keep harping on HR's, Ryann, but you ignore the fact that Laroche is on pace to hit 40 2B's. Doubles actually count for something.

Finally, Laroche's history shows that he will hit for power. When he starts putting a few in the seats, to go along with his .380 OBP, high RBI totals, doubles, and good fielding, I imagine that you will move to your next criticism ... he fans too much, or is too slow. Whatever it might be.


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Willton wrote:
His performance so far this season is a fluke.


Just ask any Phillies fan. They despise Feliz, good start aside.


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:03 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Wilton you know nothing of baseball you are a sorry apoligist that will stick up for the pirates and bob nutting. If Feliz was the pirates starting 3rd basemen today you would be going on about how great of a player he is. Wilton you cant compare laroche to boggs or youkilis because there is no comparison other then they played 3rd. Youkilis has power unlike laroche has shown.
Again I never said feliz would be a good pickup i said he has some talent. He is one of the best defensive 3rd basemen in baseball he is playing this year as well he has like 2 homeruns and is batting in the 290s. a little like laroche.


Hahahahaha :lol: Wilton probably knows the most about baseball of anybody here under 30, and i'm under 30 and i will admit he knows more than i do.


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Youk always showed more power in the bigs even before his breakthrough in 08'. He is also a good defensive player and laroche does not compare to him at all.
Im not saying I dislike laroche or he is a terrible player but he needs to hit for power. To score runs he needs an offense behind that can hit for some power. Who will do that power hitting?

Wilton thinks he knows a lot about baseball but he doesnt im sure Pedro Feliz knows more :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:09 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Wilton you know nothing of baseball you are a sorry apoligist that will stick up for the pirates and bob nutting. If Feliz was the pirates starting 3rd basemen today you would be going on about how great of a player he is. Wilton you cant compare laroche to boggs or youkilis because there is no comparison other then they played 3rd. Youkilis has power unlike laroche has shown.
Again I never said feliz would be a good pickup i said he has some talent. He is one of the best defensive 3rd basemen in baseball he is playing this year as well he has like 2 homeruns and is batting in the 290s. a little like laroche.


Hahahahaha :lol: Wilton probably knows the most about baseball of anybody here under 30, and i'm under 30 and i will admit he knows more than i do.


When you put all of your energy and all of your legwork and dedicate it to a foolish worship and twisted love affair with an owner who steals your money, it negates any
value of the research you are doing in the first place.

And it is not knowledge, it's legwork.

Because knowledge does not support 17 losing seasons, and the third lowest payroll in baseball, and trading your best players for minor leaguers, and salary dumps, and bobbleheads, and classic rock concerts, and fireworks, and spin doctors in the booth and studio.

That ain't "knowledge", that's denial.


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:10 pm 
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Well said rod.

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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:20 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Colin21 wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Wilton you know nothing of baseball you are a sorry apoligist that will stick up for the pirates and bob nutting. If Feliz was the pirates starting 3rd basemen today you would be going on about how great of a player he is. Wilton you cant compare laroche to boggs or youkilis because there is no comparison other then they played 3rd. Youkilis has power unlike laroche has shown.
Again I never said feliz would be a good pickup i said he has some talent. He is one of the best defensive 3rd basemen in baseball he is playing this year as well he has like 2 homeruns and is batting in the 290s. a little like laroche.


Hahahahaha :lol: Wilton probably knows the most about baseball of anybody here under 30, and i'm under 30 and i will admit he knows more than i do.


When you put all of your energy and all of your legwork and dedicate it to a foolish worship and twisted love affair with an owner who steals your money, it negates any
value of the research you are doing in the first place.

And it is not knowledge, it's legwork.

Because knowledge does not support 17 losing seasons, and the third lowest payroll in baseball, and trading your best players for minor leaguers, and salary dumps, and bobbleheads, and classic rock concerts, and fireworks, and spin doctors in the booth and studio.

That ain't "knowledge", that's denial.


I wouldn't put Wilton in the boat as a Nutting lover. He is optimistic towards the new era that is begining and i agree with him, but i also see why you and ryann think it's just another bluff. I believe i compared it to if your wife cheats on you once, it is hard to trust her again, and when your at work or when she goes out alone you will question what she is doing.
With the Pirates we as fans have been "cheated on about 5 different times"
It's hard to put trust in managment.


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:20 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Im sick of the excuses from these pirate fans. They think every move nutting and management make is just perfect. They cant understand that nate was the face of the organization and fan favorite. A majority of fans, media, and our own pirate players think it was a bad move but these few fans continue to think its a great move. I personally dont think it was terrible considering we get mccutchen in the majors and a couple decent prospects. But the return could have possibly better elsewhere.


Ryann -
On November 17, 2000, the Pirates signed "face of the organization" and "fan favorite" Jason Kendall to a six year, $60,000,000 extension. Why did they sign a no-power, less than average defensive catcher, high BA, relatively speedy and gritty catcher to this type of contract? Not based upon production. They did it because he was the "face of the organization" and a "fan favorite."

March 6, 1999, the Pirates signed a "feel good" story and "fan favorite" in Kevin Young to a 4 year, $24,000,000 extension. In fact (if my memory serves me correctly), a particular poster who no longer "resides" here nonetheless continues to be respected by most, referred to him admiringly as "the first basemen."

Date Unknown, 2000, the Pirates signed former first round draft pick Kris Benson to a 4 year, $24,000,000 extension. Based upon performance? Hardly. Nope . . . the decision was made because Benson showed some "promise" and, after all, Kris Benson at the time was not that far removed from displacing Ben McDonald as college's greatest pitching prospect in history.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of trading McLouth. Why? (1) Despite whatever metrics/stats/measurements you want to use to evaluate Nyjer Morgan throughout his career, I'm not convinced that he will continue to produce as he has this year; (2) McLouth has really only one full year under his belt. He started off great last year and tailed off. He showed some good play this year but his overall production was similar to the last half of last year. Has the league adjusted to him? Has he had the time to adjust back? I'm not convinced that we know exactly how good/mediocre/bad of a player that Nate McLouth is; (3) I think that those who are primarily critic of McLouth's defense are overly locked into statistics and that his defense is better than average. If there is a problem, it is primarily positioning and that falls on the guys in the dugout, advance scouting reporting and/or pitchers not hitting their spots. I wanted to see what 2/3 of a season with McLouth in LF; McCuth in CF and Moss in RF could do. PNC fits well to Nate's hitting. He won't come close to matching his HR numbers at Turner Field.

Now, even though I won't consider myself to be a "fan" fo the trade, I understand the logic. I read all of the dissenters' posts about (1) salary dumping; (2) white flag attitude and (3) inattention to fans . . . . but one thing seems to be glaringly missing to me. I have yet to read a single post which takes the position that "god damn it, the Pirates' minor league system is just fine the way it is, they don't need an infusion of youthful talent." If (and I repeat IF), the minor league system was in great shape and the trade was made, then I might be on-board (at least a little bit). But, by all accounts, the minor league system is not where it needs to be for a team in the small TV/radio revenue producing market.

So, you say. Trade Morgan instead and keep McLouth. I'm all for that as well if the sole goal was to make room for McCutch. Frankly (see opinion above), I think that the Pirates would hate gotten lucky to get one long-shot prospect for Morgan.

So . . . while seeing McLouth tonight in another uniform will be a f__king bitter pill to swallow . . . I understand the logic. The goal was not only to make room for McCutch but also to address the hole in the minor leagues (the hole is getting smaller people, getting smaller), I see why McLouth was the choice. It doesn't mean that I like it. But I understand it and there is some sense to it.

Finally, I don't begrudge anyone for having an opinion on the trade - good or bad. What I don't particularly care for those that hold their opinion to be the truth and only truth. Opinions are beliefs; they are not facts. McLouth was traded to the Braves - fact. Good move - opinion. Bad move - opinion. Salary dump - opinion. Selling "high" - opinion.

I also think that referring to others as "apologists," "Kool-Aid drinkers," "worshippers," "dullards," "idiots," "morons," etc. advances the debate in any fashion. And, yes, I am guilty as charged. I got sucked into the venom and have gone back to several of my posts and don't feel particularly thrilled about them.

A little history lesson for those who haven't been here or the predecessor board (back when No. 12 was singing the praises of Mr. Ward), any claim that Willton (f/k/a Econolodge) is an ownership shill or ownership apologist is simply ludicrous. He, along with many others, was ready to burn McClatchy, Littlefield, Tracy and McClendon at the stake. For what it is worth, Willton advocated at that time pretty much what Huntington is doing right now. So . . . to claim that he rubber stamps management decisions is just flat out wrong. He was as outspoken a critic as there was of anyone on this Board. There are also several others that fall right in line with that analysis.

If anything, I have been the one who was criticized as the consummate "Company Man." Because, as I will readily admit, I don't believe that decisions are made without some sort of reason behind them. I really don't think that the Braves approached Huntington and offered minor leaguers for Huntington and he said "yes" without paining over the ramifications. Similarly, I really think that Littlefield thought that Bobby Hill would be an everyday second baseman in the Aramis trade. Was he right? Not as far as we can tell. But when he said that the Pirates fans would be excited about the PTBNL in that trade, was he lying? Absolutely not. At that time, Hill was a pretty highly regarded prospect (lived in Chicago at the time and management loved him). Did Pirate management think that Ramirez, Benson, Giles, Young, Kendall would bring titles to Pittsburgh? Yes. Were they right? No. Did they lie? No.

Baseball is as dynamic a business situation as it is a game. When they signed McLouth, did they envision him to be part of the plan to contend. I have no doubt that they did. Did matters change? Yes, I believe they did. Snell isn't pitching as well as they had hoped. Doumatrait is down for the count. McLouth is at .250 and questions had to be raised about who is the real McLouth. Morgan's play had to exceed expections. So . . . you react to what happens. Until a crystal ball is invented, this will always be a part of the game. And, to be frank, unless your favorite team derives revenues similar to Boston, New York, Chicago and L.A., this is the way it will always be.

Again, you may not like the plan employed by management. That's fine, I can accept that. But there is a plan in place and they are sticking to it . . . building from the bottom up . . . and when I find some logic in what is done or cite that they have a plan and they are sticking to it . . . don't derogate me. Don't proclaim that you know the "truth." Its just an opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:23 pm 
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This anger has nothing to do with the mclouth trade...Its the 17 losing seasons that the apoligists like wilton are always trying to excuse.

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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:34 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Because knowledge does not support 17 losing seasons, and the third lowest payroll in baseball, and trading your best players for minor leaguers, and salary dumps, and bobbleheads, and classic rock concerts, and fireworks, and spin doctors in the booth and studio.


Rod, Steve and/or Ryann -
I'm curious as to what ownership team in major league baseball currently employs an approach that you would like to see Nutting or his replacement follow? Who should be emulated, if anyone, and why is that approach realistic in Pittsburgh?

In case you are wondering, the question is not rhetorical. I really would like to know.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:41 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
This anger has nothing to do with the mclouth trade...Its the 17 losing seasons that the apoligists like wilton are always trying to excuse.

There is no excuse for the 17 losing seasons; it's a professional sports abomination. It's just not something that anyone can do anything about. It's over. Move on.

Bitching about the past is not going to solve the problems of the future. One can only learn from past mistakes and try not to repeat them. The funny thing is that the people bitching about the current regime clearly don't understand the mistakes the former regimes made.

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Last edited by Willton on Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:44 pm 
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Dammit somebody read what i wrote about the cheating wife and see if anybody agrees with me. :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:46 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Because knowledge does not support 17 losing seasons, and the third lowest payroll in baseball, and trading your best players for minor leaguers, and salary dumps, and bobbleheads, and classic rock concerts, and fireworks, and spin doctors in the booth and studio.


Rod, Steve and/or Ryann -
I'm curious as to what ownership team in major league baseball currently employs an approach that you would like to see Nutting or his replacement follow? Who should be emulated, if anyone, and why is that approach realistic in Pittsburgh?

In case you are wondering, the question is not rhetorical. I really would like to know.

Good luck getting an suitable answer from those guys.

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~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:33 pm 
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If fans just act like the past never happened management will continue to put losers on the field. Wow wilton you are a joke you want everyone to act like the last 17 seasons never happened. We as fans have a right to bitch about the stupidity of this team in the last 17 years.
Well I do like how Tampa Bay has changed their team. I would like our managment to be like tama bay or the philies. Sign low risk high reward free agents, draft the best players in the draft, and make smart trades. Philly also has run their team pretty well.

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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:37 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
If fans just act like the past never happened management will continue to put losers on the field. Wow wilton you are a joke you want everyone to act like the last 17 seasons never happened. We as fans have a right to bitch about the stupidity of this team in the last 17 years.

So you believe your bitching on an internet message board is going to change how the Pirates operate?


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:41 pm 
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So you think your praising of the pirates management is going to help them make better moves? Or talking about the games here means anything? This is a message board I can talk about what I want not what you want. I can bitch if I want to and we have the right after 17 losing seasons.

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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
If fans just act like the past never happened management will continue to put losers on the field. Wow wilton you are a joke you want everyone to act like the last 17 seasons never happened. We as fans have a right to bitch about the stupidity of this team in the last 17 years.


Ryann -
In all due fairness, the approach followed the last two years under Huntington and Coonelly is vastly different than that followed by Cam Bonifay and Dave Littlefield. You still don't have to like it but it is a different approach. Thus, lumping what was done in 1993 to 2007 to the current regime is not accurate.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Ryann wrote:
You think you are just a baseball genius but many of us understand baseball.

Many of us do, but you have shown repeatedly that you aren't one of them.

Quote:
MAYBE if you keep your better players you might have a more competitive and better baseball team? Bay should never have been traded and none of those "prospects" have shown much.

How many winning seasons did Bay lead us to again?

Sounds to me like your plan is to keep your good players and trade your crap for gold. Bulletin: major league teams do not trade gold for crap.


Sure they do:

The Pirates trade their gold for minor league crap every year. And then fools like you jump up and down like jackasses, worshipping it.

Baloney. You have no idea whether they've been acquiring crap or gold, and you won't until they get a few major league seasons under their belts. By your definition, any player who is not a major league all star right now is crap.

Quote:
While 17 years of losing continues.

And I forgot more about Pirate baseball than you will ever know.

Obviously untrue based on your own posts.

Quote:
Be careful who you try to insult.

I am, though I must admit that taking shots at you is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Quote:
It's your fault that your Uncle bobby keeps fleecing the fans of Pittsburgh, and you come on here and get all hurt because you love him so much.

He's a thief, and you're a fool.

And I know a shitload more about the Pittsburgh Pirates than you'll ever know.

So suck on that.

Keep dreaming, jackass, keep dreaming.

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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:46 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
So you think your praising of the pirates management is going to help them make better moves? Or talking about the games here means anything? This is a message board I can talk about what I want not what you want. I can bitch if I want to and we have the right after 17 losing seasons.

First of all, I'm not blindly praising management. But to answer your question, no I do not think praising or bitching changes a thing. But apparently you do.


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If fans just act like the past never happened management will continue to put losers on the field


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 Post subject: Re: From the Post Gazette Editorial
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:50 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Pedro Feliz? I think he is a decent ball player he has pop in his bat and he is an amazing fielder at 3rd. What is wrong with that?

Neil Walker has talent. It will show eventually and he should still be a catcher. You guys overate laroche a lot he could someday develop into a great hitter if he would develop power. Singles hitters at 3rd arent the answer. Maybe they will move him to 2nd after they trade freddy?

One ridiculous assertion follows another. Neil Walker is no longer a catcher for one reason: Neil Walker sucks behind the plate. That's all there is to it. He was piss poor behind the plate right up until the time that the Pirates tried to salvage their investment in him by getting him out from behind the plate. By all accounts he's become a fine defensive third baseman. The problem is that he can't hit, and time is going to start running out on him as a prospect if he doesn't start hitting pretty soon. Bring him up now and he'd struggle to hit .200.

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