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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:57 pm 
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DL made almost NO such deals. He only did it with the Giles for Bay, Ollie etc trade. He did not want high end prospects further down on the farm. Instead he wanted mediocre MLB-ready players with little to no high projection for his players.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:02 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
DL made almost NO such deals. He only did it with the Giles for Bay, Ollie etc trade. He did not want high end prospects further down on the farm. Instead he wanted mediocre MLB-ready players with little to no high projection for his players.

ZM



And then Bay was given away for lesser talent.

By Bob Nutting.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Sorta like moss laroche hansen are right?

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:21 am 
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Ryann wrote:
Sorta like moss laroche hansen are right?

You forgot Bryan Morris. Plus, LaRoche was a highly regarded prospect in 2008, and he's showing why now. Hansen was a lottery ticket, and Moss was taken to create depth. So no, the Bay trade is absolutely nothing like anything Littlefield regularly did.

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:40 am 
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Willton wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Sorta like moss laroche hansen are right?

You forgot Bryan Morris. Plus, LaRoche was a highly regarded prospect in 2008, and he's showing why now. Hansen was a lottery ticket, and Moss was taken to create depth. So no, the Bay trade is absolutely nothing like anything Littlefield regularly did.


I still don't think Andy LaRoche will ever amount to how high of a prospect he was ranked. He is a decent player, but i don't think he will ever be much more than he is right now, maybe the average will go up for his career but that is about it.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:37 am 
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Colin21 wrote:
Willton wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Sorta like moss laroche hansen are right?

You forgot Bryan Morris. Plus, LaRoche was a highly regarded prospect in 2008, and he's showing why now. Hansen was a lottery ticket, and Moss was taken to create depth. So no, the Bay trade is absolutely nothing like anything Littlefield regularly did.


I still don't think Andy LaRoche will ever amount to how high of a prospect he was ranked. He is a decent player, but i don't think he will ever be much more than he is right now, maybe the average will go up for his career but that is about it.


His line since his first hit of the season looks like this: 333/404/468. If, and it's early enough in the game to say it's a big if, this pace is sustainable with perhaps a little more growth, I'll take Wade Boggs at 3rd.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:59 am 
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The power will come. Patience.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:23 pm 
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And if one cares to do so, one can check the comments about Andy Laroche at the beginning of the season when he was struggling. Understandably, Pirate fans were impatient and wanted production RIGHT NOW, but a lot of us advised to keep patient. Laroche's history demonstrates a superior knowledge of the strike zone, very good hitting success, and power. Those guys are damn rare.

So, he is hitting like his history suggests, but with less HR power. (He is hitting a ton of double, however. Why do some believe that doubles do not count for extra base power??) Some now criticize the lack of HR's, while others ask for patience.

Geez, the guy is hitting .300, with an OBP over .370 and rising and a slugging percentage creeping up as the season progresses. His defense has been really, really good the past 10 weeks. He is a legit starting third baseman. When Laroche begins hitting HR's, will the Laroche critics finally give him some credit?


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:26 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
And if one cares to do so, one can check the comments about Andy Laroche at the beginning of the season when he was struggling. Understandably, Pirate fans were impatient and wanted production RIGHT NOW, but a lot of us advised to keep patient. Laroche's history demonstrates a superior knowledge of the strike zone, very good hitting success, and power. Those guys are damn rare.

So, he is hitting like his history suggests, but with less HR power. (He is hitting a ton of double, however. Why do some believe that doubles do not count for extra base power??) Some now criticize the lack of HR's, while others ask for patience.

Geez, the guy is hitting .300, with an OBP over .370 and rising and a slugging percentage creeping up as the season progresses. His defense has been really, really good the past 10 weeks. He is a legit starting third baseman. When Laroche begins hitting HR's, will the Laroche critics finally give him some credit?


"Credit", will be given, when the Pirates put a winning team on the field.

and not a second sooner.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:55 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
"Credit", will be given, when the Pirates put a winning team on the field.

and not a second sooner.

And how does the team get there? Pirate management is following the advice of Syd Thrift - get pitching in every deal. That is what Thrift did for the Pirates and the result was acquiring pitchers like Doug Drabek, who would anchor the staff.

Thrift also looked for high-end talent like Van Slyke and Bonilla. He knew that the Pirates were not going to win with decent but limited players like Jim Morrison getting 500 at bats.

But hey, I guess Thrift was a front office shill involved in "salary dumps" for trading guys like Reuschel, Pena, Rhoden, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:56 pm 
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.........................


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Speaking of Sid, I wonder how much differant the last couple decades would have been had Barger listened to him about setting up a "Pirates Academy"???

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
The power will come. Patience.


Did Andy ever have any good power numbers throughout the minors. I never really followed him through the minors, i just knew he was highly ranked.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:51 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
Did Andy ever have any good power numbers throughout the minors. I never really followed him through the minors, i just knew he was highly ranked.

Yes. He hit 95 HR's in 1800 minor league at bats. That works out to a HR every 18.9 at bats, or 27 HR's in 500 at bats.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... oche.shtml


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
He knew that the Pirates were not going to win with decent but limited players like Jim Morrison getting 500 at bats.


They needed to brake Jim Morrison on through to the other side

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:42 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Colin21 wrote:
Did Andy ever have any good power numbers throughout the minors. I never really followed him through the minors, i just knew he was highly ranked.

Yes. He hit 95 HR's in 1800 minor league at bats. That works out to a HR every 18.9 at bats, or 27 HR's in 500 at bats.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... oche.shtml


Great numbers:

That's a mere 93 more than he has hit in the only league that counts, The MAJOR League. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:46 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Great numbers:

That's a mere 93 more than he has hit in the only league that counts, The MAJOR League. :lol:

Are you saying that minor league performance is meaningless?

Then why the fuck do you harp on the fact that Gorkys Hernandez currently has no home runs IN THE MINOR LEAGUES??

Be careful what you say. Sometimes, we actually pay attention.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:49 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
"Why not now? The timing is perfect because Nate's value won't get any higher."

So the basis is that you trade him because you can??

Using that logic, why don't the Cards trade Pujols? Or the Pens Malkin and Crosby? Or the Steelers Big Ben or Holmes? Their value won't get any higher than it is now, either.

The Buccos are last in attendance, and one of the factors is that they have teed off their fan base. That's a fact.

No, you trade him because you got a very good offer.

In case you hadn't noticed, the Pirates were last in attendance WITH McLouth. Are the gonig to finish super double secret last now?

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:55 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Parrot:

Good point on using premium positions where a team has depth to turn those guys into starters at other positions. In terms of positional value, the universal truth is that pitching is number 1, catcher number 2.

Anybody who doubts this should look at drafts for the past 10-15 years. Pitchers and catchers are represented in the first 3 rounds well beyond their statistical norm - that is, more than 44% players selected in the first 3 rounds are pitchers, and catchers account for well over 12.5% of position players selected.

Right now, the Buccos have stockpiled starting pitching and catching. Those players are premium position players and get good return if traded.

I think that's more because pitchers and catchers tend to suffer career ending injuries at much higher rates.

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Coonelly said. "We still expect to win games this season and compete for a postseason berth."

You know, I don't believe a thing these guys tell us. Not a thing. They told Nate and all of us that he was the "cornerstone". And then they trade him for [i]three minor leaguers![/i

Are you freakin' kiddin' me?

An awful lot of any team's makeup is chemistry, and attitude. And these clowns have obviously dealt it a blow.

If FC and NH told me it was raining outside, I'd have to go look out the window and make sure they weren't lying to me. I would bet a good many in the Bucco clubhouse feel the same.

That ain't good.

In terms of this year, it's possible that our record can improve from this deal. If McCutchen produces like an average center fielder at the plate and plays superior defense (neither of which would be a shock), and Morton comes up and pitches slightly better than whoever he replaces, then the trade breaks even as far as this season is concerned.

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