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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:24 am 
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I was surprised by the number in attendance yesterday. If this team ever wins, lookout, because there are baseball fans out there.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:27 am 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I was surprised by the number in attendance yesterday. If this team ever wins, lookout, because there are baseball fans out there.


I wonder how many made a day of it...went to the Pirate game, then to the Penguin game, then called off work today?

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:29 pm 
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Coonelly said. "We still expect to win games this season and compete for a postseason berth."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

SPIN CITY


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:00 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Coonelly said. "We still expect to win games this season and compete for a postseason berth."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

SPIN CITY


The divison has been so up and down this year it is hard to tell. Mike Greenberg said today on Mike and Mike in the morning that he thought if we had kept McLouth that we would have stood a chance at a playoff spot. He said a slim chance but still a chance. He went on to say you can't count out a team that is only 3 games under .500 and 5 games out of the division lead.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:07 pm 
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Colin21 wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Coonelly said. "We still expect to win games this season and compete for a postseason berth."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

SPIN CITY


The divison has been so up and down this year it is hard to tell. Mike Greenberg said today on Mike and Mike in the morning that he thought if we had kept McLouth that we would have stood a chance at a playoff spot. He said a slim chance but still a chance. He went on to say you can't count out a team that is only 3 games under .500 and 5 games out of the division lead.


I'll bet he doesn't get to watch too much Pirate baseball. I certainly don't believe we could have made the playoffs with the current team but using his logic if the team is good enough as he says to make the playoffs, it should be good enough now without McLouth considering McCutchen is a marked improvenment defensively and has a little better plate discipline. McLouth has much more power than Cutch does and much more experience, but it may be a wash (considering Cutch lives up to the hype). Thats the other thing, everything about baseball is "what if." Nothing is a given.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:37 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Coonelly said. "We still expect to win games this season and compete for a postseason berth."

I don't believe that the Pirates have ever said that they are looking to win this year. They have repeatedly said what we all expect them to say - "We are looking to win today's game and will put the best team on the field," blah, blah.

But current management has consistently - CONSISTENTLY - turned good-not-great players* in peak years into high-ceiling young players, particularly young power arms.

The trades over the past 1 1/2 seasons include the following:

Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz. Winner - Pirates. Young catcher who can hit for an underproducing bench guy who currently has 1 HR, 9 RBI's.

Ronnie Paulino for Jason Jaramillo. Winner - Pirates. 26-year old, switch-hitting catcher with an OPS of .776, and somebody who is quite good defensively vs. a 28-year old with a current OPS of .676, and with defensive limitations. Winner - Pirates.

Xavier Nady, Damasco Marte for Ross Ohlendorf, Jeff Karstens, Daniel McCutchen, and Jose Tabata. 40% of the starting rotation, top starter in AAA, high-ceiling young OF'er with speed, arm, power potential. Seriously, big winner, Pirates.

Jason Bay for Andy Laroche, Brandon Moss, Craig Hansen, Bryan Morris. Starting 3B'man who is going to be the best the Pirates have had at the position in quite some time, two power arms (injuries suck), and a L-handed hitting 4th OF'er type with strong arm and power potential. Advantage right now to Boston for Bay's huge year. Advantage 2010 and beyond? Laroche, Hansen and Morris could make this another deal that is a win for the Buccos.

*I exclude Bay from this category, since he is better than "good-not-great."


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:54 pm 
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Great post Bucfan.

To save me trawling all sorts of websites, could someone please elucidate on this "great year" for Jason?

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
I don't believe that the Pirates have ever said that they are looking to win this year. They have repeatedly said what we all expect them to say - "We are looking to win today's game and will put the best team on the field," blah, blah.

But current management has consistently - CONSISTENTLY - turned good-not-great players* in peak years into high-ceiling young players, particularly young power arms.

The trades over the past 1 1/2 seasons include the following:

Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz. Winner - Pirates. Young catcher who can hit for an underproducing bench guy who currently has 1 HR, 9 RBI's.

Ronnie Paulino for Jason Jaramillo. Winner - Pirates. 26-year old, switch-hitting catcher with an OPS of .776, and somebody who is quite good defensively vs. a 28-year old with a current OPS of .676, and with defensive limitations. Winner - Pirates.

Xavier Nady, Damasco Marte for Ross Ohlendorf, Jeff Karstens, Daniel McCutchen, and Jose Tabata. 40% of the starting rotation, top starter in AAA, high-ceiling young OF'er with speed, arm, power potential. Seriously, big winner, Pirates.

Jason Bay for Andy Laroche, Brandon Moss, Craig Hansen, Bryan Morris. Starting 3B'man who is going to be the best the Pirates have had at the position in quite some time, two power arms (injuries suck), and a L-handed hitting 4th OF'er type with strong arm and power potential. Advantage right now to Boston for Bay's huge year. Advantage 2010 and beyond? Laroche, Hansen and Morris could make this another deal that is a win for the Buccos.

*I exclude Bay from this category, since he is better than "good-not-great."


The 2 catchers may also spin off in to something else(probably minor but still) and we gave up nothing really. A utility player and an overweight, underproducing 2nd string catcher who was already let go once since we traded him.

The package from the Yankees is tremendous. And again we gave up a middle reliever(who has been beyond awful) and a slightly above average OF who was in the midst of a career year. If Tabata turns out like he looks he might this is one of the better trades in a long while for the Pirates.

Because of what you said in your last line about Bay being better than a "good not great" guy I still question the return on this one. When you trade a superstar you should get a bona fide sure thing in return. They did not. It does look like LaRoche is the real deal. But that is it right now. Morris needs to get healthy and stay healthy and then we'll see. But I still would have liked to see a sure fire young guy come back in return.

And the McClouth deal...I'm apparently one of the few people anxious to see how Morton fairs. He is tearing it up for the second year at AAA and is not that old. He was supposedly hurt last year when he pitched for the Braves. If, and a big if I know, he is good now you might be able to spin "Head Case" Snell off on the Phillies or some other pitching starved team that could overpay.

It's not just the trades themselves but the trickle down effect. More trades, the call up of a potential superstar, etc. It's ok to question the trades without calling them out and out salary dumps...


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:07 pm 
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Bertie wrote:
Great post Bucfan.

To save me trawling all sorts of websites, could someone please elucidate on this "great year" for Jason?


Thanks.

Jason Bay currently has 14 2B's, 16 HR's, 53 RBI's, and is hitting .283./.405/.618. His home runs rank 2nd in the AL, the RBI's rank 2nd in the AL, his OBP ranks 6th in the league. That is really good production.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:12 pm 
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Parrot:

Good point on using premium positions where a team has depth to turn those guys into starters at other positions. In terms of positional value, the universal truth is that pitching is number 1, catcher number 2.

Anybody who doubts this should look at drafts for the past 10-15 years. Pitchers and catchers are represented in the first 3 rounds well beyond their statistical norm - that is, more than 44% players selected in the first 3 rounds are pitchers, and catchers account for well over 12.5% of position players selected.

Right now, the Buccos have stockpiled starting pitching and catching. Those players are premium position players and get good return if traded.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:24 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Coonelly said. "We still expect to win games this season and compete for a postseason berth."

I don't believe that the Pirates have ever said that they are looking to win this year. They have repeatedly said what we all expect them to say - "We are looking to win today's game and will put the best team on the field," blah, blah.

But current management has consistently - CONSISTENTLY - turned good-not-great players* in peak years into high-ceiling young players, particularly young power arms.

The trades over the past 1 1/2 seasons include the following:

Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz. Winner - Pirates. Young catcher who can hit for an underproducing bench guy who currently has 1 HR, 9 RBI's.

Ronnie Paulino for Jason Jaramillo. Winner - Pirates. 26-year old, switch-hitting catcher with an OPS of .776, and somebody who is quite good defensively vs. a 28-year old with a current OPS of .676, and with defensive limitations. Winner - Pirates.

Xavier Nady, Damasco Marte for Ross Ohlendorf, Jeff Karstens, Daniel McCutchen, and Jose Tabata. 40% of the starting rotation, top starter in AAA, high-ceiling young OF'er with speed, arm, power potential. Seriously, big winner, Pirates.

Jason Bay for Andy Laroche, Brandon Moss, Craig Hansen, Bryan Morris. Starting 3B'man who is going to be the best the Pirates have had at the position in quite some time, two power arms (injuries suck), and a L-handed hitting 4th OF'er type with strong arm and power potential. Advantage right now to Boston for Bay's huge year. Advantage 2010 and beyond? Laroche, Hansen and Morris could make this another deal that is a win for the Buccos.

*I exclude Bay from this category, since he is better than "good-not-great."


Enabling, head in the sand Kool-Aid talk if ever there was. You just don't seem to get it, it's all about dumping salaries. The Pirates will always be terrible because they always trade their good players for prospects.

So yeah, keep blowing smoke.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D :) :) :) :| :| :| :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:28 pm 
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Bay is driving in runs in bunches.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:33 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Bay is driving in runs in bunches.

Jason Bay is a very good player. Andy Laroche, Craig Hansen and Bryan Morris are all blue-chip prospects.

To get quality young players in return, a team needs to trade guys like Nady, Bay and McLouth.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:29 pm 
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Coonelly said. "We still expect to win games this season and compete for a postseason berth."

You know, I don't believe a thing these guys tell us. Not a thing. They told Nate and all of us that he was the "cornerstone". And then they trade him for [i]three minor leaguers![/i

Are you freakin' kiddin' me?

An awful lot of any team's makeup is chemistry, and attitude. And these clowns have obviously dealt it a blow.

If FC and NH told me it was raining outside, I'd have to go look out the window and make sure they weren't lying to me. I would bet a good many in the Bucco clubhouse feel the same.

That ain't good.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:34 am 
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Aramis ramirez is the best. Moves like that is why fans have right to be angry.

So dont go around saying laroche is best third basemen in years because we did have ramirez but gave him away to adivision rival to save some money.

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:40 am 
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Littlefield gave him away...Not Huntington!!!

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:18 pm 
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If I read one more thread about trades and draft picks made by CB or DL and the blame continues to be placed on the current administration, I swear I'm going to go insane. To me, the board has become boring. It's the same conversation over and over again.


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:13 pm 
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That's the effect that Trolls have, and the reason why they should be banned.

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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:55 pm 
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Bertie wrote:
That's the effect that Trolls have, and the reason why they should be banned.


Perhaps people who have been banned before should be on a shorter leash after the "get ouf of jail free" card has been played?


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 Post subject: Re: PG Poll on McClouth deal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:54 pm 
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But dl and company made the same deals then and it appears like the current administration has been doing the same. False promises and no follow through. If these plans dont work you same people will be cheering on the next administration praising their every move.

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