Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:24 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:20 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5902
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
I can't believe that I'm even trying to do this . . . but here goes.

This is mainly for Rod, Pirates1970, eStrango and others who say the "answer" involves spending money.

I do not disagree that there is more than one way to build a franchise that is currently in the midst of a long streak of losing seasons.

I hear the cries of "spend more money."

I'd like to know a little bit more. From you. To try to understand your position a little better.

Here are my serious questions for you:
1. What should the payroll currently be?
2. Should payroll exceed revenues?
3. How much more money should be spent than is currently being spent? On whom? What do you do with current players? Trade? Keep? Pay more? How does the hypothetical new owner simply spend money to make this team competitive immediately?
4. With your ideas of franchise building, should a small television/radio revenue team like Pittsburgh try to compete every year? How does it accomplish this?

Again, these are not facetious questions. I ask them because I am interested in reading about other's thoughts about how this could be done.

It does not seem that long ago that the Pirates signed Brian Giles to a long term market bearing contract to keep him in Pittsburgh for years beyond free agent eligibility. The same can be said for Kris Benson, Aramis Ramirez (although I think that was to avoid arbitration), Kevin Young, Pat Meares and Jason Kendall. That team didn't win squat. Subsequent teams with lower payroll also didn't win squat. I've read a lot of specifics on why building from the bottom up is a good way to go. I'd like to read specifics on your thoughts/strategies.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:25 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:22 pm
Posts: 2495
Good post but I doubt you'll get a substantive reply from the talking points crowd.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:32 pm
Posts: 3173
Location: Darlington, Pennsylvania
I can't believe nobody has answered. I thought this topic would take off with them.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7308
SALARY DUMP!!! blah blah blah 17 years...No Nady, Bay or McLouth...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:32 pm
Posts: 3173
Location: Darlington, Pennsylvania
nad69dan wrote:
SALARY DUMP!!! blah blah blah 17 years...No Nady, Bay or McLouth...


You forgot to say screw Wilton and his cronines. They like to use that one alot also.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:46 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:37 pm
Posts: 567
I understand the concept of developing talent internally. It is probably the formula for success. What frustrates the heck out of me is how long it takes the Pirates to develop that talent. Maybe its poor scouting, bad front office decision or poor scouting but McCutchen was drafted in 2005 and just made his big league debut today. How many MLB 1st and 2nd round draft picks from the 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 drafts reached the majors before McCutchen and provided a meaningful impact on their club. I bet there are probably approaching two dozen. And the Pirates arent deep in talent. Its not like there was an All Star Outfield blocking his progression. If they keep developing talent internally at this pace, we won't see division challenging lineup in Pittsburgh until after McCutchen is traded for the next batch of prospects.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 5220
Location: Washington, DC
Right now, this team should be spending money on top-end prospects in the draft and in Latin America. And, starting with Alvarez last year, they appear to be doing that.

Once the system is saturated with talent, THEN the Pirates can start building a major league contending team. But not until then.

_________________
Image


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:43 pm
Posts: 5011
Location: Omaha, NE via Sioux City, Kansas City, and Chicago
No. 9, you proved right there why a certain someone is completely worthless to this board. You have a perfect format for those questions and have received no answer. Yet we see a certain someone hijack more threads when it's easy to do so.

_________________
Iowa State Cyclones (2-9) at #3 Texas Christian Horned Frogs (10-1)
Saturday, December 6, 2014 11:00 AM
Amon G. Carter Stadium, Forth Worth, TX
ABC


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:10 am
Posts: 1334
MoTownWV wrote:
I understand the concept of developing talent internally. It is probably the formula for success. What frustrates the heck out of me is how long it takes the Pirates to develop that talent. Maybe its poor scouting, bad front office decision or poor scouting but McCutchen was drafted in 2005 and just made his big league debut today. How many MLB 1st and 2nd round draft picks from the 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 drafts reached the majors before McCutchen and provided a meaningful impact on their club. I bet there are probably approaching two dozen. And the Pirates arent deep in talent. Its not like there was an All Star Outfield blocking his progression. If they keep developing talent internally at this pace, we won't see division challenging lineup in Pittsburgh until after McCutchen is traded for the next batch of prospects.


Dude, he's 22. He's 5 months younger than Matt Weiters, 3 months older than Pedro Alvarez. The relevant question is how many MLB 1st and 2nd round draft picks from the 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 reached the majors before the age of 22? A few, perhaps, but not many.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:15 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:37 pm
Posts: 567
Great. He is 22 and with be gone by 27, the prime of his career. When you are the Pittsburgh Pirates and have 16 yr of losing hanging over you age is irrelevant. You have to focus on identifying quality talent that can reach the bigs as quick as possible especially if you are dedicated to building internally. You dont have the advantage of waiting 4 or 5 years for a player to develop. Alvarez is closest thing to Major League the Pirates have drafted in nearly two decades and I bet it is still the 2011 season before we see him in Pittsburgh. There is no way of knowing for sure but I bet any number of teams including a number contenders would have him ready faster.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:23 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 11:28 pm
Posts: 2170
No. 9 wrote:
I can't believe that I'm even trying to do this . . . but here goes.

This is mainly for Rod, Pirates1970, eStrango and others who say the "answer" involves spending money.

I do not disagree that there is more than one way to build a franchise that is currently in the midst of a long streak of losing seasons.

I hear the cries of "spend more money."

I'd like to know a little bit more. From you. To try to understand your position a little better.

Here are my serious questions for you:
1. What should the payroll currently be?
2. Should payroll exceed revenues?
3. How much more money should be spent than is currently being spent? On whom? What do you do with current players? Trade? Keep? Pay more? How does the hypothetical new owner simply spend money to make this team competitive immediately?
4. With your ideas of franchise building, should a small television/radio revenue team like Pittsburgh try to compete every year? How does it accomplish this?

Again, these are not facetious questions. I ask them because I am interested in reading about other's thoughts about how this could be done.

It does not seem that long ago that the Pirates signed Brian Giles to a long term market bearing contract to keep him in Pittsburgh for years beyond free agent eligibility. The same can be said for Kris Benson, Aramis Ramirez (although I think that was to avoid arbitration), Kevin Young, Pat Meares and Jason Kendall. That team didn't win squat. Subsequent teams with lower payroll also didn't win squat. I've read a lot of specifics on why building from the bottom up is a good way to go. I'd like to read specifics on your thoughts/strategies.


The payroll should be raised by around 10 million. Payroll wouldnt have to exceed revenues. Money should be spent on drafting the right players and targeting mid range free agents that can outpreform a few of the current players. Here is something to think about. The penguins were very unpopular for some time but once they got exciting talent and a winnning hockey team tv ratings went through the roof. If the pirates were to get a winning team on the field and not continuously trade their best players for low to mid level prospects they would get a winning team.
The Mclouth trade can't be seen as totally terrible we didnt get a great return but not a terrible one. The only plus to the trade is having andrew mccutchen in the starting lineup. Which brings me to another point. Keeping the top talent in the minors wont get us a winning team. Neil walker is he ever going to get a chance to prove his worth in the bigs? Or why not move up the stud Pedro Alvarez to altoona already? How long do we keep our players in the minors? TO LONG!

_________________
0 straight losing seasons


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:29 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6301
Yea but if you bring the guy up too young and he doesn't succeed you may retard his development or even end it. It is a subtle game and is learned as such for the most part. I don't have a problem with this trade and it's returns. That we will see, but I like what curveradio dug up and reported. We should be so lucky as to have a source like that on our board.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:43 pm
Posts: 5011
Location: Omaha, NE via Sioux City, Kansas City, and Chicago
Az Bucco fan wrote:
That we will see, but I like what curveradio dug up and reported. We should be so lucky as to have a source like that on our board.


Amen!

_________________
Iowa State Cyclones (2-9) at #3 Texas Christian Horned Frogs (10-1)
Saturday, December 6, 2014 11:00 AM
Amon G. Carter Stadium, Forth Worth, TX
ABC


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:06 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Springfield, IL
you guys are making me blush...just trying to do my job..


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:31 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6301
Well we are reaping the benefits. If I ever meet you, the drinks are on me. And dinner.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Serious question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5558
Location: Pittsburgh
Ryann wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
I can't believe that I'm even trying to do this . . . but here goes.

This is mainly for Rod, Pirates1970, eStrango and others who say the "answer" involves spending money.

I do not disagree that there is more than one way to build a franchise that is currently in the midst of a long streak of losing seasons.

I hear the cries of "spend more money."

I'd like to know a little bit more. From you. To try to understand your position a little better.

Here are my serious questions for you:
1. What should the payroll currently be?
2. Should payroll exceed revenues?
3. How much more money should be spent than is currently being spent? On whom? What do you do with current players? Trade? Keep? Pay more? How does the hypothetical new owner simply spend money to make this team competitive immediately?
4. With your ideas of franchise building, should a small television/radio revenue team like Pittsburgh try to compete every year? How does it accomplish this?

Again, these are not facetious questions. I ask them because I am interested in reading about other's thoughts about how this could be done.

It does not seem that long ago that the Pirates signed Brian Giles to a long term market bearing contract to keep him in Pittsburgh for years beyond free agent eligibility. The same can be said for Kris Benson, Aramis Ramirez (although I think that was to avoid arbitration), Kevin Young, Pat Meares and Jason Kendall. That team didn't win squat. Subsequent teams with lower payroll also didn't win squat. I've read a lot of specifics on why building from the bottom up is a good way to go. I'd like to read specifics on your thoughts/strategies.


The payroll should be raised by around 10 million. Payroll wouldnt have to exceed revenues. Money should be spent on drafting the right players and targeting mid range free agents that can outpreform a few of the current players. Here is something to think about. The penguins were very unpopular for some time but once they got exciting talent and a winnning hockey team tv ratings went through the roof. If the pirates were to get a winning team on the field and not continuously trade their best players for low to mid level prospects they would get a winning team.
The Mclouth trade can't be seen as totally terrible we didnt get a great return but not a terrible one. The only plus to the trade is having andrew mccutchen in the starting lineup. Which brings me to another point. Keeping the top talent in the minors wont get us a winning team. Neil walker is he ever going to get a chance to prove his worth in the bigs? Or why not move up the stud Pedro Alvarez to altoona already? How long do we keep our players in the minors? TO LONG!

Ryan, Neil Walker has yet to prove he deserves to be in AAA, let alone the majors. Unless he has a dramatic turnaround, he's going to end up being another Littlefield bust. I'm not say that will happen, but that's the direction he's moving in right now. He'd need luck just to stay above the Mendoza line in Pittsburgh the way he's hitting right now.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits