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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:37 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Most of us love the Pittsburgh Pirates.

However, There is a Tiny fringe minority who love Nutting, Coonely, and Huntingdon, more than they love the Pirates.

It is this minority that gets so upset when the real fans post about being discouraged by all the losing.

It is this minority that tells the majority of us to "stop watching then".

If by "real" fans you mean uneducated fans, then yes, I get mad at "real" fans. This "real" fan nonsense is the same stupidity that envelops the whole "true Yankee" bullshit that I hear in the NYC area. There's no such thing as a distinction between a "fan" and a "real fan," and the whole thing smacks of elitism.

I tell people to stop watching when they say the team is unwatchable. I hate to sound like BH here, but he's right in one area: if you're upset with the direction the team is going, then stop giving the team your time and money. All you are doing is "enabling" them to continue on the path that you think is bad. I stopped buying anything Pirates related when I figured out how Littlefield and McClatchy were running the team into the ground because I did not think it made good business sense to reward them for decision-making that I thought was poor. When Littlefield was fired and I began to see Coonelly and Huntington making good baseball decisions (such as the trades of Nady and Bay, the investment in Latin America, the good draft in 2008), I started paying to see them play and buying Pirates paraphernalia again.

I have no sympathy for "real" fans who complain about the team incessantly but still hand their money over to the organization. If you can't see the good moves that this organization has made since 2007, fine, but don't complain about the drugs that you're getting and then ask buy another hit.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:39 pm 
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VanSlick wrote:
I have been a fan since 1978 and I have never felt as let down as I do right now. I mean, even the freaking Arizona Cardinals turned things around!!

The definition of insanity: Repeating the same mistakes over and over again, yet expecting a different outcome.

Indeed. However, that assumes that the decisions of this new regime were the same mistakes of the old one. You are clearly wrong in that regard.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:55 pm 
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Willton wrote:
VanSlick wrote:
I have been a fan since 1978 and I have never felt as let down as I do right now. I mean, even the freaking Arizona Cardinals turned things around!!

The definition of insanity: Repeating the same mistakes over and over again, yet expecting a different outcome.

Indeed. However, that assumes that the decisions of this new regime were the same mistakes of the old one. You are clearly wrong in that regard.

The decisions of the new GM/Pres have not been proven to be right. Until the team wins, they are wrong. They may be different decisions, but that does not mean that they are not mistakes either.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:58 pm 
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estrago wrote:
The decisions of the new GM/Pres have not been proven to be right. Until the team wins, they are wrong. They may be different decisions, but that does not mean that they are not mistakes either.


A comment like that is like driving a 1985 Dodge Omni with a $3,000 sound system in it...

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:59 pm 
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Willton wrote:
if you're upset with the direction the team is going, then stop giving the team your time and money. All you are doing is "enabling" them to continue on the path that you think is bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:00 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Image


I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:21 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Most of us love the Pittsburgh Pirates.

However, There is a Tiny fringe minority who love Nutting, Coonely, and Huntingdon, more than they love the Pirates.

It is this minority that gets so upset when the real fans post about being discouraged by all the losing.

It is this minority that tells the majority of us to "stop watching then".


What does this statement mean? Do you actually have any idea of what you speak? You are blaming Nutting, Coonely and Huntington for our woes as of now? If you are, you have to be the most uninformed fan in baseball. If you'd climb out from under your rock, you'd see improvements throughout the organization that will in turn bring QUALITY talent to the ML level, not a bunch of utility players posing as starters. But it is obvious that you cannot or will not aknowledge this.

If you are such the GM, then tell me which FA or FA's would have made a freaking difference? Tell me where the Pirates would be today if Jason Bay was still wearing the uniform?

I personally think you care more about stirring up discourse on this site than you do the Pirates. (The previous statement can be just as ridiculous as the one you made about fans that love the FO more than the Pirates)

So now its your turn... blah blah blah about salary dumps, blah blah blah about X free agent, blah blah blah about the Jason Bay trade, Oh and don't forget the insults, that makes it fun to read.


1. Learn to spell. ACKNOWLEDGE, NOT AKNOWLEDGE.

2. I'm Blaming Nutting, and ONLY Nutting. Coonely and Huntingdon are to blame only for the Bay Salary Dump, and the follow up spin accompanied with it.

3. If you love the Pirates, then you cannot be on board with Nutting, who has been with the Pirates the longest, and has had his hand in the losing for a very long time. Nutting made ALOT of profit on the Pirates, in the past two years, and has not paid the money back out in the form of a better on field product. Period.

4. If the Pirates had Jason Bay today, they would have more home runs than any other roster player, they wouldn't have a minor league right fielder who cannot field or hit at the major league level, and they would be a much better baseball team.

5. The majority of posters on this board, and fans alike, agree with me. The only dissenters are the fans of Coonely and Huntingdon and Nutting. The rest of us, the MAJORITY of us, are NOT apologists, are NOT spin doctors, and are UPSET, FRUSTRATED, ANGRY, AND DISAPPOINTED, with a record 17 years of losing, and a management team that perennially trades its best players for minor league talent at the trade deadline.

6. The only ones who are being insulted, are the real fans on here, who realize that the ownership and management of this franchise is pocketing huge profits while spinning and lying to its fans each and every year.


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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:28 pm 
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estrago wrote:
The decisions of the new GM/Pres have not been proven to be right. Until the team wins, they are wrong. They may be different decisions, but that does not mean that they are not mistakes either.

Basically what you're saying is that any decision that the Pirates organization makes is bad until they reach .500. Then every one of those decisions that you called bad is now considered good because the team is above .500. That is about as arbitrary as it gets. You're basically proposing a "guilty until proven innocent" standard of evaluation, which I think is ludicrous. The decisions should be objectively evaluated based on what knowledge was available at the time they were made.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:46 pm 
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I'm going to do this Sisyphus style.

Quote:
1. Learn to spell. ACKNOWLEDGE, NOT AKNOWLEDGE.

Please accept my deepest regrets for misspelling one word.

Quote:
2. I'm Blaming Nutting, and ONLY Nutting. Coonely and Huntingdon are to blame only for the Bay Salary Dump, and the follow up spin accompanied with it.


What the hell do you know about Nutting? Other than what you have devised up in the fantasies of your head? Are you in the board room? Do you read the financials? Again, another stupid comment based on jack s***.

Quote:
3. If you love the Pirates, then you cannot be on board with Nutting, who has been with the Pirates the longest, and has had his hand in the losing for a very long time. Nutting made ALOT of profit on the Pirates, in the past two years, and has not paid the money back out in the form of a better on field product. Period.


Nutting has been with the Pirates since 2003 and only been the controlling owner since 2007, damn I blame him for all those down years in the 50's when we really sucked! And hey hero, what company doesn't try to turn a profit. If they didn't turn a profit, they'd be sold to someone who would.

Quote:
4. If the Pirates had Jason Bay today, they would have more home runs than any other roster player, they wouldn't have a minor league right fielder who cannot field or hit at the major league level, and they would be a much better baseball team.


We had Bay and Nady having career years last year and that didn't matter much did it? Plus, we wouldn't have a top-of-the-rotation starter prospect(Morris) in the minors, nor a quality 3rd baseman in Laroche either.

Quote:
5. The majority of posters on this board, and fans alike, agree with me. The only dissenters are the fans of Coonely and Huntingdon and Nutting. The rest of us, the MAJORITY of us, are NOT apologists, are NOT spin doctors, and are UPSET, FRUSTRATED, ANGRY, AND DISAPPOINTED, with a record 17 years of losing, and a management team that perennially trades its best players for minor league talent at the trade deadline.


What freakin polls are you using? You must be using some kind of CNN poll to figure out who "most" on this site are. Try this on for size, ALL of the posters on this site are frustrated and wan't the Pirates to win badly, but a few (like you) aren't wrapped in reality.

Quote:
6. The only ones who are being insulted, are the real fans on here, who realize that the ownership and management of this franchise is pocketing huge profits while spinning and lying to its fans each and every year.


Again information without references, I didn't know you had access to the PBC financials. Very weak arguments that you have here Mr. S.


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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
3. If you love the Pirates, then you cannot be on board with Nutting, who has been with the Pirates the longest, and has had his hand in the losing for a very long time. Nutting made ALOT of profit on the Pirates, in the past two years, and has not paid the money back out in the form of a better on field product. Period.

Who says we're "on board" with Nutting? Why can't we just evaluate their decisions like any rational person should? Why do we have to pick a side and swear fealty to that side? This isn't a war we're fighting.

Quote:
4. If the Pirates had Jason Bay today, they would have more home runs than any other roster player, they wouldn't have a minor league right fielder who cannot field or hit at the major league level, and they would be a much better baseball team.

And they'd still be losing. And the next year, Bay would be gone and the Pirates would have nothing to show for it. Yay.

Quote:
5. The majority of posters on this board, and fans alike, agree with me. The only dissenters are the fans of Coonely and Huntingdon and Nutting. The rest of us, the MAJORITY of us, are NOT apologists, are NOT spin doctors, and are UPSET, FRUSTRATED, ANGRY, AND DISAPPOINTED, with a record 17 years of losing, and a management team that perennially trades its best players for minor league talent at the trade deadline.

Who is this "majority" of which you speak? Have you spoken to them? They apparently can't be that upset, since they keep paying for tickets, Pirates gear, and MLB Extra Innings to watch them play.

If you're going to appeal to cheap populism, at least give us a representative poll that supports it.

Quote:
6. The only ones who are being insulted, are the real fans on here, who realize that the ownership and management of this franchise is pocketing huge profits while spinning and lying to its fans each and every year.

If those "real fans" really do realize this, then why are they still shelling out their hard-earned money to the organization?

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:55 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
1. Learn to spell. ACKNOWLEDGE, NOT AKNOWLEDGE.
... Nutting made ALOT of profit on the Pirates ...

Do you mean "a lot"? :D

This is why making fun of spelling or typographical errors on a message board is not productive. Most of us make mistakes - as you did with the non-existent term "ALOT."


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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:57 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:

5. The majority of posters on this board, and fans alike, agree with me. The only dissenters are the fans of Coonely and Huntingdon and Nutting. The rest of us, the MAJORITY of us, are NOT apologists, are NOT spin doctors, and are UPSET, FRUSTRATED, ANGRY, AND DISAPPOINTED, with a record 17 years of losing, and a management team that perennially trades its best players for minor league talent at the trade deadline.

6. The only ones who are being insulted, are the real fans on here, who realize that the ownership and management of this franchise is pocketing huge profits while spinning and lying to its fans each and every year.


I have a hard time believing someone like Frank Coonely would leave a position with the MLB Front Office just to enjoy the riches of the Nutting Profits or hire a stats guy from Baseball Prospectus...That sure seems like he's out to pocket money...

This group has only been here for one July 31st trade deadline, so its tough to say they perennially trade their best players for minor league talent...

You know what?! It's pointless to try and agrue with you because you have yet to back any of your claims, and there have been many points by many other posters to shoot your claims down...

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:40 pm 
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The Pirates are clearly better today than they were two years ago. I don't think anyone can refute that. It is only a question of how much better they are. And I don't know about anyone else, but I had higher expectation of Huntington than only being better than Littlefield.

But it sure would be nice to see more of his first draft class and players he acquired at last year's trade deadline perform better.


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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:43 pm 
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Willton wrote:
estrago wrote:
The decisions of the new GM/Pres have not been proven to be right. Until the team wins, they are wrong. They may be different decisions, but that does not mean that they are not mistakes either.

Basically what you're saying is that any decision that the Pirates organization makes is bad until they reach .500. Then every one of those decisions that you called bad is now considered good because the team is above .500. That is about as arbitrary as it gets. You're basically proposing a "guilty until proven innocent" standard of evaluation, which I think is ludicrous. The decisions should be objectively evaluated based on what knowledge was available at the time they were made.


No not at all. The new GM/Pres may be making all the right choices....but that can not be proven until you see proven winning results. Similar to the NFL draft when fans and media grade the draft the day after....there is no way possible to judge or grade until they perform and you have good or bad results even tough there was objective views and knowlege at the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:45 pm 
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IMO we are all upset and disappointed with the losing as of late. Big part of that feeling comes from the fact that we started off winning and looking good. We all started to dream that we were better then we knew we were. We started to expect to win. And then the injuries and the offense dying, and the pitrching going south and we start this losing.

So, how do we react? Re-read this thread and it will show different people react differently, but no one is happy here. If attacking each other makes you feel good then by all means continue.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 5:42 pm 
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Alexandria Dukes wrote:
The Pirates are clearly better today than they were two years ago. I don't think anyone can refute that. It is only a question of how much better they are. And I don't know about anyone else, but I had higher expectation of Huntington than only being better than Littlefield.

Fair analysis, and I agree with the assessment. Being better than crappy should not be the goal.

Alexandria Dukes wrote:
But it sure would be nice to see more of his first draft class and players he acquired at last year's trade deadline perform better.

True. If Morris is not injured and is throwing 96 mph in AA, and if Hansen is not injured and is doing the same in the majors, then the trade looks different.


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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:27 pm 
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Alexandria Dukes wrote:
The Pirates are clearly better today than they were two years ago. I don't think anyone can refute that. It is only a question of how much better they are. And I don't know about anyone else, but I had higher expectation of Huntington than only being better than Littlefield.

But it sure would be nice to see more of his first draft class and players he acquired at last year's trade deadline perform better.


I disagree with that. I think we were better 2 years ago, but i think we are in a better situation now. Instead of having a 90 loss team with an average age of 31-32, we are a 90 loss team with an average age of about 26-27.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Then stop watching.


If only it were that simple. I grew up with the team. While some can turn that off, for me, I can't stop watching or stop caring about the team. It's kind of like a friend or loved one who goes down the wrong path (drugs or a bad relationship or something). You can't just stop caring about your friend or loved one. It's kind of like that with the Pirates for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 1:26 am 
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Rod Serling wrote:
1. Learn to spell. ACKNOWLEDGE, NOT AKNOWLEDGE.

2. I'm Blaming Nutting, and ONLY Nutting. Coonely and Huntingdon are to blame only for the Bay Salary Dump, and the follow up spin accompanied with it.

5. The majority of posters on this board, and fans alike, agree with me. The only dissenters are the fans of Coonely and Huntingdon and Nutting. The rest of us, the MAJORITY of us, are NOT apologists, are NOT spin doctors, and are UPSET, FRUSTRATED, ANGRY, AND DISAPPOINTED, with a record 17 years of losing, and a management team that perennially trades its best players for minor league talent at the trade deadline.


:lol:
Before criticizing others . . . learn to proof-read. Posts like this simply make you look stupid.
:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Worst team in baseball this is sickening
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 1:43 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
1. Learn to spell. ACKNOWLEDGE, NOT AKNOWLEDGE.

2. I'm Blaming Nutting, and ONLY Nutting. Coonely and Huntingdon are to blame only for the Bay Salary Dump, and the follow up spin accompanied with it.

5. The majority of posters on this board, and fans alike, agree with me. The only dissenters are the fans of Coonely and Huntingdon and Nutting. The rest of us, the MAJORITY of us, are NOT apologists, are NOT spin doctors, and are UPSET, FRUSTRATED, ANGRY, AND DISAPPOINTED, with a record 17 years of losing, and a management team that perennially trades its best players for minor league talent at the trade deadline.


:lol:
Before criticizing others . . . learn to proof-read. Posts like this simply make you look stupid.
:lol:


You missed one of Rod's many mistakes #9. He has salary dump as Salary Dump. You would think he would get it right since he uses it in every post.


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