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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:50 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:

You want to argue with Bob Smizik? He says it was a salary dump also.



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Oh, you were being serious about using Bob Smizik as a knowledgeable point of view?



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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:56 pm 
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Bob Smizik is the most respected and knowledgable sports writer in the city of Pittsburgh.

You are a message board poster with an avatar from South Park.


I'll take Smizik.


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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:59 pm 
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I will also add Ron Cook, Stan Savran, and Paul Alexander, to the list of sports experts who believe the Bay Trade to be a salary dump.

You and your buddy on this message board can laugh all you want, when the two of you command the respect of more than 100 combined years of comprehensive and expert sports knowledge in the city of pittsburgh, then you maybe you'll have a leg to stand on.

Scoreboard.


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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:33 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Bob Smizik is the most respected and knowledgable sports writer in the city of Pittsburgh.

You are a message board poster with an avatar from South Park.


I'll take Smizik.


Smizik is a joke. The other day on Sunday Sports Showdown he said the NHL is the only sport where the players have the power to get the coach fired. Really Bob, i don't think so. Every sports that a team is exspected to do good and doesn't they don't drop their players they dump their coach.
I was on the line with him the other night but now i just think he is an idiot.

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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:37 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Bob Smizik is the most respected and knowledgable sports writer in the city of Pittsburgh.

You are a message board poster with an avatar from South Park.


I'll take Smizik.

I have expert opinion backing my side:
Christina Karhl wrote:
If the trade with the Yankees was a tentative sort of thing involving the exchange of veteran mediocrities for an off-blue, chambray sort of blue-chipper and three nondescript upper-level hurlers, and the sort of thing that might have caused alarm, Pirates fans can take solace in this deal. This time, Neal Huntington and company got two much better prospects, better than anything they got from the Yankees, not to mention a pair of useful-enough filler types for an organization that needs bodies in every shape and size. While it cost them Bay, it brought them their new best player on the team, because LaRoche will be an All-Star-caliber hitter at third base now that he's free of a Dodgers organization that wasn't treating him at all fairly. Morris is a nifty add as well, a 2006 first-rounder coming back from a 2007 Tommy John surgery who's done good work with the Loons in Low-A, flashing low- to mid-90s heat, a new sinker, an improved change, and a nasty curve. He's been on a workload almost as monitored and structured as Clayton Kershaw's in his comeback, averaging less than five innings per start, but with 72 strikeouts and 31 walks in 81 2/3 IP and a GB/FB ratio of 1.7, he's flashing a live arm, and as a 21-year-old stripling, that's something to take an interest in.

The ballast from the Red Sox doesn't hurt, either. Hansen throws hard and heavy, and maybe an escape from the franchise that promoted him too aggressively will get the former St. John's closer his best shot at carving out a career for himself. Moss should make a nice enough fourth outfielder type on a team that should now be promoting Andrew McCutchen to take over in center, providing the pitching staff with the added benefit of getting a quality center fielder in place while shunting Nate McLouth to a corner and the defensive chores he's better equipped to deal with.

Again, to recap, if getting Tabata was a matter of taking a chance, then getting LaRoche is a case of swapping out an expensive, aging outfielder for a quality everyday player just at the start of his big-league career at a position of organizational need. Morris may well be the second-best prospect he acquired between the two deals, they added some elements of cost control by shedding Bay's contract, and perhaps more fundamentally they addressed their defensive inadequacies by bringing in a better third baseman and making room for a better center fielder (once McCutchen's up). That's the sort of broad-stroke improvements you have to tip your cap to when they're achieved. Huntington warned people off about his not making deals just to make them over the winter—having made this trade, it was clearly worth the wait.

Thanks to Kevin Goldstein and Bryan Smith for their observations.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... d=7888#PIT

See also Joe Sheehan:
Joe Sheehan wrote:
LaRoche, the prize here, should step in immediately and be an above-average hitter at third base. LaRoche becomes the best truly young player the Pirates have, and with Andrew McCutchen on his way up and Pedro Alvarez entering the system, you can see what might comprise a championship-caliber core in three or four years. The Pirates now have players who may become stars, and stars win championships.

The rest of the package adds depth to the system. Morris, a #1 pick in 2006, missed a year to surgery and was pitching well in low-A ball. He's projected as a starter in the majors, and his upside is a good mid-rotation guy. I'll TNSTAAPP that to death, but Huntington doesn't quite have that luxury. Hansen and Moss are comparable to the three non-Jose Tabata players in last week's trade: fringe major leaguers who help shore up the execrable back end of the Pirates roster. Hansen was never going to have a role in Boston, but the Pirates can take a flyer on him, and at worst he'll fit right into their pen. Moss may get a chance to play with the Pirates down a couple of outfielders, something he was never going to do in Boston. Like Nady and Marte before them, Hansen and Moss have opportunities to play larger roles for a lesser organization, which isn't a bad way to become rich.

If you throw out the three prospects, Bay for LaRoche is still a fair haul for the Pirates. They trade Bay at his peak, coming off of an injury, with just 800 PAs or so to free agency. LaRoche will be theirs through 2013, he plays a more important position, and he is just coming into his prime.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... cleid=7889

See also Rob Neyer:
Rob Neyer wrote:
But I love the Jason Bay deal. When you trade a great (or near-great) player, you have to get back a player who's got a real chance of being great. In Andy LaRoche, the Pirates got that player. The Pirates could have kept Jason Bay for the rest of this season and all of next season at a reasonable price. After that he'd have been gone as a free agent. They'll control LaRoche's contract through 2013, and if you could assign a dollar value to Bay through 2009 and LaRoche through 2013, LaRoche would come out way ahead.

The Pirates also picked up Brandon Moss and Craig Hansen, who both have non-zero chances of becoming useful major leaguers for at least a few years. And Bryan Morris, while still a long ways from the majors, immediately becomes one of the Pirates' top pitching prospects. All of whom make the package the Pirates got for Bay significantly more valuable than what the Rays were supposedly offering.

Neal Huntington still has plenty of work to do. But he's on the right track.

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/in ... dNeyer_Rob

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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:43 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
I will also add Ron Cook, Stan Savran, and Paul Alexander, to the list of sports experts who believe the Bay Trade to be a salary dump.

Source?

Rod Serling wrote:
You and your buddy on this message board can laugh all you want, when the two of you command the respect of more than 100 combined years of comprehensive and expert sports knowledge in the city of pittsburgh, then you maybe you'll have a leg to stand on.

And when Bob Smizik commands the same amount of respect (which he does not), then you too will have a leg to stand on. As it currently stands, Smizik has written very little that would exhibit a "comprehensive and expert sports knowledge" of the game of baseball.

Rod Serling wrote:
Scoreboard.

Troll.

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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:41 am 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Bob Smizik is the most respected and knowledgable sports writer in the city of Pittsburgh.

You are a message board poster with an avatar from South Park.


I'll take Smizik.


Rod, do yourself a favor and stop posting. You've already been humiliated enough.


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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 12:23 pm 
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I don't know. The South Park the other night with the Dog Whisperer training Cartman was pretty good.


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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:12 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
I will also add Ron Cook, Stan Savran, and Paul Alexander, to the list of sports experts who believe the Bay Trade to be a salary dump.

Source?

Rod Serling wrote:
You and your buddy on this message board can laugh all you want, when the two of you command the respect of more than 100 combined years of comprehensive and expert sports knowledge in the city of pittsburgh, then you maybe you'll have a leg to stand on.

And when Bob Smizik commands the same amount of respect (which he does not), then you too will have a leg to stand on. As it currently stands, Smizik has written very little that would exhibit a "comprehensive and expert sports knowledge" of the game of baseball.

Rod Serling wrote:
Scoreboard.

Troll.



Bob Smizik is the most respected sports journalist in Pittsburgh.

You are an apologist who makes excuses for a sorry ownership that you worship.

The only humiliation on here belongs to you.


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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:26 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Bob Smizik is the most respected sports journalist in Pittsburgh.

You are an apologist who makes excuses for a sorry ownership that you worship.

The only humiliation on here belongs to you.



From "The most respected journalist in Pittsburgh"... on Wednesday, April 29, 2009. After the Bay trade mind you...

Quote:
If you want to knock Nutting for the team’s decision to trade Jason Bay and Xavier Nady last summer you can, although those decisions probably were made solely by Huntington and Coonelly. I seriously doubt Coonelly left an influential job with MLB to run the Pirates and not have something approaching total control.

At any rate, the case can be made the trades of Bay and Nady were done to reduce payroll although that is not easily proven. I disagreed with the Bay trade but felt it was done for legitimate reasons, which were to broaden the depth of talent on the team.
As near as I can tell, Nutting is running what amount to something close to a textbook operation for low-revenue teams.
His day of reckoning will come if and when the Pirates get good and he has to start paying big-time contracts, not the club-friendly deals he’s made with the team’s best young talent.

Rant if you want, but the Pirates have been awful for any number or reasons but nowhere chief among them is the failures of Bob Nutting.


Care to keep trying to salvage some respect Rod?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:35 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Bob Smizik is the most respected sports journalist in Pittsburgh.

You are an apologist who makes excuses for a sorry ownership that you worship.

The only humiliation on here belongs to you.



From "The most respected journalist in Pittsburgh"... on Wednesday, April 29, 2009. After the Bay trade mind you...

Quote:
If you want to knock Nutting for the team’s decision to trade Jason Bay and Xavier Nady last summer you can, although those decisions probably were made solely by Huntington and Coonelly. I seriously doubt Coonelly left an influential job with MLB to run the Pirates and not have something approaching total control.

At any rate, the case can be made the trades of Bay and Nady were done to reduce payroll although that is not easily proven. I disagreed with the Bay trade but felt it was done for legitimate reasons, which were to broaden the depth of talent on the team.
As near as I can tell, Nutting is running what amount to something close to a textbook operation for low-revenue teams.
His day of reckoning will come if and when the Pirates get good and he has to start paying big-time contracts, not the club-friendly deals he’s made with the team’s best young talent.

Rant if you want, but the Pirates have been awful for any number or reasons but nowhere chief among them is the failures of Bob Nutting.


Care to keep trying to salvage some respect Rod?

ZM


I could care less about "respect" from Coonely/Huntingdon/Nutting apologists like you or "Wilton", or any number of apologists just like you.

Smizik, who I know for a FACT, has gone on THE RECORD, as saying the Bay trade was unnecessary and a SALARY DUMP. He said it on the NUmber one countdown on KDKA, he said it more than once on the call in show on the other channel, and he has said it in conversation with people I personally know.

ALMOST each and every Pittsburgh sports journalist, outside of beat writers, know the Bay trade was a salary dump, and acknowledge the ownership is the worst in sports.

So stick that up your craw, and take your "respect" with you.


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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:51 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
I could care less about "respect" from Coonely/Huntingdon/Nutting apologists like you or "Wilton", or any number of apologists just like you.

Smizik, who I know for a FACT, has gone on THE RECORD, as saying the Bay trade was unnecessary and a SALARY DUMP. He said it on the NUmber one countdown on KDKA, he said it more than once on the call in show on the other channel, and he has said it in conversation with people I personally know.

But he's apparently not willing to say it in print, as evinced by ZM's quote above. I wonder why....

Rod Serling wrote:
ALMOST each and every Pittsburgh sports journalist, outside of beat writers, know the Bay trade was a salary dump, and acknowledge the ownership is the worst in sports.

So stick that up your craw, and take your "respect" with you.

And yet, you are not able to provide any proof that such sports journalists said that the Bay trade was a salary dump. I wonder why....

I know that you will not hear John Perrotto of the Beaver County Times, who in my estimation is the best sports journalist in the Pittsburgh area, ever say that the Bay trade was a dump. He is not that reactionary.

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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
... ALMOST each and every Pittsburgh sports journalist, outside of beat writers, know the Bay trade was a salary dump, and acknowledge the ownership is the worst in sports.

So stick that up your craw, and take your "respect" with you.


Interesting. Every writer except the ones that actually follow the team on a day to day basis, ...and ask all the questions, ... and know more than anyone what is going on... funny idea that.

I wonder how next to reconcile the actual printed response by your most beloved journalist with what you just know to be fact. I wonder why such a respected journalist would contradict himself in such a way and leave himself open to criticism's of flip flopping and inconsistency? Why would he say that Coonelly and Nutting are running a "Model" franchise right now?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:34 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Care to keep trying to salvage some respect Rod?

ZM

Ouch. "A hit, a palpable hit!"

Zelie, if you ever find the need to do the same type of thing to me, could you at least buy me dinner first?


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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:35 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
I could care less about "respect" from Coonely/Huntingdon/Nutting apologists like you or "Wilton", or any number of apologists just like you.

Smizik, who I know for a FACT, has gone on THE RECORD, as saying the Bay trade was unnecessary and a SALARY DUMP. He said it on the NUmber one countdown on KDKA, he said it more than once on the call in show on the other channel, and he has said it in conversation with people I personally know.

ALMOST each and every Pittsburgh sports journalist, outside of beat writers, know the Bay trade was a salary dump, and acknowledge the ownership is the worst in sports.

So stick that up your craw, and take your "respect" with you.


In my business, there is a saying:
When the law is in your favor, cite the law.
When the facts are in your favor, cite the facts.
When neither are in your favor, raise your voice and pound the table.

For internet message boards, perhaps that saying can be modified:
When the facts support your position, provide a link.
When the stats support your position, cite the stats.
When neither support your position, type in all caps and get angry.

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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:41 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:

Rod, do yourself a favor and stop posting. You've already been humiliated enough.


The next thing you know, Rod will be accusing me of failing to convince him to stop talking. I just wanted to post my proof to the contrary in advance, not that it would matter to him.


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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:43 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Ouch. "A hit, a palpable hit!"

Zelie, if you ever find the need to do the same type of thing to me, could you at least buy me dinner first?


Yeah, but then I'd feel pressure to come up with a metric to measure dinner, like RWIF+ (red wine indulgence factor divided by ability to drive home) or some such.

I prefer, mmmmmmmm... good steak.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:50 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Ouch. "A hit, a palpable hit!"

Zelie, if you ever find the need to do the same type of thing to me, could you at least buy me dinner first?


Yeah, but then I'd feel pressure to come up with a metric to measure dinner, like RWIF+ (red wine indulgence factor divided by ability to drive home) or some such.

I prefer, mmmmmmmm... good steak.

ZM


I prefer the simple equation of 1 tequila, 2 tequila, 3 tequila, floor...

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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:52 pm 
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A nice soft merlot or a hearty cab ZM?


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 Post subject: Re: May 4, 2009 Brewers (13-12) at Pirates (12-12)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Cabs have a RWIF+ of 12, while Merlot's are about 5. Give me a Cab any day.

I like my wines to pound me, not speak softly!

ZM

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