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 Post subject: Buccos getting more and more coverage...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:44 pm 
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...although mostly from haters.

Check out MLB Trade Rumors Odds 'N Ends section today. Two links to articles about the Bucs.

One covers the Bucs' claim to having this year's best pitching staff. It's from RotoAuthority and they slam the Bucs saying that the results are overinflated. They expect Maholm, Duke and Ohlendorf to return to 'Earth' soon. They state that while Snell's numbers are probably the most real, if he doesn't correct his control, he will start to struggle more.

The other link goes to everyone's favorite 'news'paper (I use the word 'news' loosely there), the NY Post. They analyze the Nady/Marte trade. General review...the Yanks got screwed because Nady is hurt and Marte sucks...BUT...they didn't give anyone up because they sent players to the lowly Pirates. The writer implies that Ohlendorf and Karstens success with the Bucs wouldn't translate in the AL East...but since the Bucs play in the NL Central they are looking good. God I hate the Yankees, their fans and their media... :evil:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/04/odds-ends-perez-dbacks-baez.html ***edited to add URL***


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 Post subject: Re: Buccos getting more and more coverage...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:57 pm 
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The article was pretty pro-Ohlendorf, negative on Karstens, cautiously optimistic about McCutchen the pitcher (back end rotation guy), and uncertain about Tabata. Relatively fair assessment of these guys, IMO.

Having seen Ohlendorf's last two starts, and seeing him pound the strike zone with 91-93 mph two-seamers, when he gets better command of the curve and change, he is going to be a beast. The worries about his K rate are unfounded. His minor league K rates, even at the highest level, have always been very, very high.

I suspect that McCutchen may supplant Karstens at some point. Tabata starts to hit for more power, while continuing to walk and hit for average. At that point, the Yankees will be 5 games below .500 and on the ledge. I hope the four players the Pirates received in the deal can push them off.


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 Post subject: Re: Buccos getting more and more coverage...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:22 pm 
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The Roto Authority article was pretty even handed and dealt with stuff we talked about in a thread last week, specifically BABIP and the abnormally low ground ball rates of Maholm and Duke. If those two return to their career ground ball rates, their success could be sustainable.

The Post article was a lot more even handed than I thought it'd be. Still, I don't know what the Yankees were expecting from Nady in the long term. It's not like he was a consistent, healthy All-Star...last year was the first in his career in which he played more than 130 games. Marte has had some good years, but his success since 2006 came in the NL Central, at which apparently the Yankees thumb their noses when it comes to pitching. He's also 34 years old, so I'm not sure what they expected from him either (granted, probably better than his current ERA+ of 32).

I was ticked off at the Nady trade when it happened, but I like it more with every quality start from Ohlendorf. If the Yankees feel like they didn't give up a lot, that doesn't bother me at all. But they got nothing from the trade in the short term, and it appears that the long term outlook isn't good either.


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 Post subject: Re: Buccos getting more and more coverage...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:37 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
If the Yankees feel like they didn't give up a lot, that doesn't bother me at all. But they got nothing from the trade in the short term, and it appears that the long term outlook isn't good either.

The Yankees are lying if they say they did not "give up anything" in the trade. Two starting pitchers currently in the rotation, plus another in AAA, and a talented OF'er, is quite a return for a lefty situational guy and an OF'er, even a good one before the injury.

And the belief that everything is different in the AL East is silly. Pitchers face better hitting, overall, with those teams, but at least a portion of that is due to the DH. The DH is a joke. Meanwhile, the Yankees starting pitching is mediocre at the end of the rotation, Ohlendorf would be their number 3 or 4 right now, and their bullpen is awful.


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 Post subject: Re: Buccos getting more and more coverage...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:41 pm 
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Marte has sucked since joining the Yankees. I wish Nady would have stayed healthy because 1) I like him as a person 2) it would have made it more apparent how one sided (in the Pirates favor) the trade was/is. If McCutchen and Ohlendorf become middle of the rotation guys we come out ahead on that alone. If Tabata becomes even average at his position, the trade is a steal. Anything more from Tabata and NH gets arrested for grand theft. Karstens is just the cherry on top.

I'm not pulling a hindsight is 20/20 thing either, I liked this trade, as did quite a few of us, when it was made. I wonder if Buster Olney et al. will print a retraction on the Pirates being "hosed" if warranted?


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 Post subject: Re: Buccos getting more and more coverage...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:43 pm 
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Murrysville native and Frankling Regional HS graduate Courtney Haslett of MSNBC "Morning Joe" calls out her "boyz" on the Pirates today.

Its ok to come out of the closet, I guess, if the celebrity reporter calls out her Pittsburgh Pirate colors.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Buccos getting more and more coverage...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:40 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
jaybee24 wrote:
If the Yankees feel like they didn't give up a lot, that doesn't bother me at all. But they got nothing from the trade in the short term, and it appears that the long term outlook isn't good either.

The Yankees are lying if they say they did not "give up anything" in the trade. Two starting pitchers currently in the rotation, plus another in AAA, and a talented OF'er, is quite a return for a lefty situational guy and an OF'er, even a good one before the injury.

And the belief that everything is different in the AL East is silly. Pitchers face better hitting, overall, with those teams, but at least a portion of that is due to the DH. The DH is a joke. Meanwhile, the Yankees starting pitching is mediocre at the end of the rotation, Ohlendorf would be their number 3 or 4 right now, and their bullpen is awful.


Personal opinion on the DH aside, it is definitely one reason that Ohlendorf and Karstens might not expect the same success in the AL East, along with the higher quality of offense as you pointed out. Another reason is the Yankees home stadium. Karstens would be absolutely shelled there, especially against lefties, since routine flyouts in other stadiums (stadia?) become home runs in right field of Yankee Stadium version 2.0. And Karstens gives up a lot of fly balls.

So the Yankees gave up a back-end starter and future considerations for a shot at the playoffs, which I think is a fair trade. Like I said, they'll likely have nothing to show for it since they did not make the playoffs last year, but this wasn't the equivalent of Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek for Heathcliffe Slocumb (at least not yet). And if Tabata is hitting 40 home runs and McCutchen is striking out 200+ two years for now, I will happily rub it in the face of Yankees fans.


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 Post subject: Re: Buccos getting more and more coverage...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:03 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
So the Yankees gave up a back-end starter and future considerations for a shot at the playoffs, which I think is a fair trade. Like I said, they'll likely have nothing to show for it since they did not make the playoffs last year, but this wasn't the equivalent of Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek for Heathcliffe Slocumb (at least not yet). And if Tabata is hitting 40 home runs and McCutchen is striking out 200+ two years for now, I will happily rub it in the face of Yankees fans.


The Yankees gave up their #3, #9, and #14 prospects plus Karstens (whose job was to be a bridge/band-aid) for a 34 year old washed up LOOGY and a 105 OPS+ OFer. They'd have been better off keeping the youngsters and signing Bonds and Clemens for a playoff push.


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 Post subject: Re: Buccos getting more and more coverage...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:18 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
jaybee24 wrote:
So the Yankees gave up a back-end starter and future considerations for a shot at the playoffs, which I think is a fair trade. Like I said, they'll likely have nothing to show for it since they did not make the playoffs last year, but this wasn't the equivalent of Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek for Heathcliffe Slocumb (at least not yet). And if Tabata is hitting 40 home runs and McCutchen is striking out 200+ two years for now, I will happily rub it in the face of Yankees fans.


The Yankees gave up their #3, #9, and #14 prospects plus Karstens (whose job was to be a bridge/band-aid) for a 34 year old washed up LOOGY and a 105 OPS+ OFer. They'd have been better off keeping the youngsters and signing Bonds and Clemens for a playoff push.


What's LOOGY?

My point on the trade from the Yankees perspective was how much it hurt their team...when you have money, giving up 4/5 starters is usually no big deal. This year appears to be unusual, as the Yankee staff is in total shambles...but if anyone could have predicted a starting five of Wang, Burnett, Sabatthia, Chamberlain, and Pettite would fall apart like this, they should be hired immediately by Ms. Cleo.

I just don't think the Yankees are going to lose any sleep over Ohlendorf or Karstens in the long run. Given the huge offensive hole in the outfield the Yankees had last year and how well Nady was hitting, I don't believe they'd rethink that part of the trade if they had to do it over. They may lose sleep in the end over Tabata or McCutchen, I hope.


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 Post subject: Re: Buccos getting more and more coverage...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:11 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
What's LOOGY?

Lefty One Out Guy. A situation left-hander.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/gloss ... arch=loogy

jaybee24 wrote:
My point on the trade from the Yankees perspective was how much it hurt their team...when you have money, giving up 4/5 starters is usually no big deal. This year appears to be unusual, as the Yankee staff is in total shambles...but if anyone could have predicted a starting five of Wang, Burnett, Sabatthia, Chamberlain, and Pettite would fall apart like this, they should be hired immediately by Ms. Cleo.

Yankees gave up two power starters (Ohlendorf and McCutchen). IMO, both guys would be on the Yankees staff in 2010, with Ohlendorf in the rotation and McCutchen in the pen/vying for a rotation spot.

Giving up that much pitching is nuts, unless you get back a superstar, like Hanley Ramirez, etc. Yankees got nothing close to that, even if Nady is healthy.

And oh yeah, they also "threw in" a soft-tossing starter and one of their best young hitters, a guy who may be a 20-20 guy in the majors. Ouch.


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