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 Post subject: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:51 pm 
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http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1241


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:13 pm 
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Kerrigan is obviously nuts:

DL: What is your philosophy regarding calling pitches from the dugout?

JK: We don’t like to call pitches. We like our catchers to learn themselves; we like to make them aware of reads and situations. If a guy is diving, if a guy is leaking, if a guy is pulling off, if a guy is a first-pitch swinger. Just basic reminders. If we get into a fastball rut, to make sure that we mix back and forth. Stuff like that. We like for them to grow and read, and I think that if you get into pitch calling, you hamper, or retard, the education of a catcher.

DL: You like to strap on the gear and catch your pitchers from time to time. What advantages are gained by that?

JK: You see what the hitter sees. You see the spin on the ball, you see the lateness of the movement on the fastball, you see the lateness and crispness of the breaking ball. You see the spin on the changeup, the arm action on the changeup. You see what the hitter sees and that just gives you a good perspective, a different perspective, to work and teach from there. Any time you make adjustments, or talk to a pitcher about a delivery or a mechanical adjustment, you have to know for sure, in your mind, that’s the adjustment you want to make. And one of the ways you can do that is by catching the guy.


* * * * * * * * * *

DL: John Russell has said that you have a good ability to read pitchers. What did he mean by that?

JK: I don’t know. It’s just a feel. I think it comes from catching them. If you do catch them, you get a little different relationship going with them. When you catch your guys, they know that you know what a hitter sees. So it’s real. That’s a nice compliment, what John said, but I won’t get carried away with it.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:21 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Kerrigan is obviously nuts:

You'll note that not once did Kerrigan say pitch-calling was a skill.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 pm 
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Willton wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Kerrigan is obviously nuts:

You'll note that not once did Kerrigan say pitch-calling was a skill.


You are correct. The words "pitch-calling is a skill" were not uttered by Kerrigan. The words he uttered speak for themselves. You are free to conclude that the words used by Kerrigan do not equate to him believing that "pitch calling" is a "skill." I'm not sure what you'd conclude but . . . .

Kerrigan said that he likes to leave pitch calling to a catcher because the catcher can make "reads" by looking to see if a hitter is diving, leaking, pulling off and recognizing a hitter's tendencies. Would you consider a quarterback's reading of a defense a "skill?" I would. If a quarterback sees that a linebacker appears to be committing to a blitz, calls an audible and hits the TE on a quick hitter . . . that's pretty valuable. If a catcher "reads" (note: I'm using Kerrigan's term) that a hitter is "diving" into his swing and, as a result, calls for inside pitches . . . I'd call that pretty valuable as well. Of, if a catcher "reads" that a hitter is "pulling off" on pitches and, as a result, calls for outside fastballs . . . that's pretty valuable. Combining those "reads" with what kind of "stuff" a particular pitcher has on a particular night is also pretty valuable. Also, if a particular pitcher simply doesn't have it that night, and is relegated to throwing fastballs for strikes, ensuring that the pitcher is working in-and-out is also pretty valuable.

But, like I wrote before, Kerrigan is obviously nuts.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Az:

Maybe you and I need to man up and put on the gear.

DL: You like to strap on the gear and catch your pitchers from time to time. What advantages are gained by that?

JK: You see what the hitter sees. You see the spin on the ball, you see the lateness of the movement on the fastball, you see the lateness and crispness of the breaking ball. You see the spin on the changeup, the arm action on the changeup. You see what the hitter sees and that just gives you a good perspective, a different perspective, to work and teach from there. Any time you make adjustments, or talk to a pitcher about a delivery or a mechanical adjustment, you have to know for sure, in your mind, that’s the adjustment you want to make. And one of the ways you can do that is by catching the guy.


Kerrigan is 7 years older than me, catching major league pitchers. I guess I need to put on the chest protector, shin guards, and mask and catch a few pitches from son. He is shaming me into it.


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:30 pm 
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Been there, done that. No more...............................


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:31 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Az:

Maybe you and I need to man up and put on the gear.

DL: You like to strap on the gear and catch your pitchers from time to time. What advantages are gained by that?

JK: You see what the hitter sees. You see the spin on the ball, you see the lateness of the movement on the fastball, you see the lateness and crispness of the breaking ball. You see the spin on the changeup, the arm action on the changeup. You see what the hitter sees and that just gives you a good perspective, a different perspective, to work and teach from there. Any time you make adjustments, or talk to a pitcher about a delivery or a mechanical adjustment, you have to know for sure, in your mind, that’s the adjustment you want to make. And one of the ways you can do that is by catching the guy.


Kerrigan is 7 years older than me, catching major league pitchers. I guess I need to put on the chest protector, shin guards, and mask and catch a few pitches from son. He is shaming me into it.


If you want I got a lefty catcher mitt if you need extra protection...

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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:32 pm 
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I need more than that.


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:48 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I need more than that.

How about this?

Image

Add a catcher's mask and glove, and voila'!!


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:47 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Willton wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Kerrigan is obviously nuts:

You'll note that not once did Kerrigan say pitch-calling was a skill.


You are correct. The words "pitch-calling is a skill" were not uttered by Kerrigan. The words he uttered speak for themselves. You are free to conclude that the words used by Kerrigan do not equate to him believing that "pitch calling" is a "skill." I'm not sure what you'd conclude but . . . .

Kerrigan said that he likes to leave pitch calling to a catcher because the catcher can make "reads" by looking to see if a hitter is diving, leaking, pulling off and recognizing a hitter's tendencies. Would you consider a quarterback's reading of a defense a "skill?" I would. If a quarterback sees that a linebacker appears to be committing to a blitz, calls an audible and hits the TE on a quick hitter . . . that's pretty valuable. If a catcher "reads" (note: I'm using Kerrigan's term) that a hitter is "diving" into his swing and, as a result, calls for inside pitches . . . I'd call that pretty valuable as well. Of, if a catcher "reads" that a hitter is "pulling off" on pitches and, as a result, calls for outside fastballs . . . that's pretty valuable. Combining those "reads" with what kind of "stuff" a particular pitcher has on a particular night is also pretty valuable. Also, if a particular pitcher simply doesn't have it that night, and is relegated to throwing fastballs for strikes, ensuring that the pitcher is working in-and-out is also pretty valuable.

But, like I wrote before, Kerrigan is obviously nuts.

I stand by what I've said in the past: if game-calling were a skill, then there would be evidence of it. You can preach theory all you want, but if you cannot point to actual evidence that a catcher's game-calling has a consistent cognizable effect on the game, then for all intents and purposes, it does not exist as a skill. And I have at least one study that backs up my position.

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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:51 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
I need more than that.

How about this?

Image

Add a catcher's mask and glove, and voila'!!

Just make sure you've used the bathroom before donning that thing. ;)

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:14 pm 
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That study would barely - if at all - withstand a Daubert analysis (Bucfan, Prince and Willton understand this) and even if it did, its assumptions and methodology are incredibly flawed and it would be the subject of very humorous cross-examination if the author was questioned regarding the limitations of his conclusions.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:37 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
That study would barely - if at all - withstand a Daubert analysis (Bucfan, Prince and Willton understand this) and even if it did, its assumptions and methodology are incredibly flawed and it would be the subject of very humorous cross-examination if the author was questioned regarding the limitations of his conclusions.

Then make your motion, counselor. For your benefit, here are the BP articles regarding the study:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... icleid=432
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... icleid=436
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... cleid=1489

And here is the chapter from Baseball Between the Numbers:

http://books.google.com/books?id=uxdvwQ ... #PPA108,M1

I look forward to reading your arguments regarding relevancy and reliability.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Read them all some time ago. I previously psoted why the studies are inherently flawed. The post was long, littered with examples and illustrations and I'll bore the crowd again later. I'm driving right now so I can't do it immediately but - if my memory serves me correctly - the underlying premise of the studies involves CERA. That statistic is essentially worthless. A catcher can call a better game when a particular pitcher is struggling (a game in which a pitcher might get lit up) than a game in which the pitcher has lights out stuff.

Let's try this another way. Do you believe that effective pitching keeps hitters off balance by mixing up pitches, working the ball in and out and changing speeds?
I

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:33 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Read them all some time ago. I previously psoted why the studies are inherently flawed. The post was long, littered with examples and illustrations and I'll bore the crowd again later. I'm driving right now so I can't do it immediately but - if my memory serves me correctly - the underlying premise of the studies involves CERA. That statistic is essentially worthless. A catcher can call a better game when a particular pitcher is struggling (a game in which a pitcher might get lit up) than a game in which the pitcher has lights out stuff.

Let's try this another way. Do you believe that effective pitching keeps hitters off balance by mixing up pitches, working the ball in and out and changing speeds?
I


Actually, the flawed studies to which you refer used CERA to conclude that game calling IS a measurable skill. The chapter from Baseball Between the Numbers immediately calls it out for being flawed.

The main argument from the BBTN chapter is that if it were a skill, you'd be consistently be able to identify the major league catchers who were the best game callers. No one has been able to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:45 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Read them all some time ago. I previously psoted why the studies are inherently flawed. The post was long, littered with examples and illustrations and I'll bore the crowd again later. I'm driving right now so I can't do it immediately but - if my memory serves me correctly - the underlying premise of the studies involves CERA. That statistic is essentially worthless. A catcher can call a better game when a particular pitcher is struggling (a game in which a pitcher might get lit up) than a game in which the pitcher has lights out stuff.

Let's try this another way. Do you believe that effective pitching keeps hitters off balance by mixing up pitches, working the ball in and out and changing speeds?
I


Actually, the flawed studies to which you refer used CERA to conclude that game calling IS a measurable skill. The chapter from Baseball Between the Numbers immediately calls it out for being flawed.

The main argument from the BBTN chapter is that if it were a skill, you'd be consistently be able to identify the major league catchers who were the best game callers. No one has been able to do so.

Jaybee is correct: CERA is a flawed creature developed by Craig Wright, and Woolner's study is quite critical of CERA. No. 9, perhaps you need to read the articles again.

By the way, you're typing while driving? Isn't that dangerous? You'd get pulled over and ticketed for that in NJ.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:47 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Let's try this another way. Do you believe that effective pitching keeps hitters off balance by mixing up pitches, working the ball in and out and changing speeds?

I'm willing to believe it, yes. Next question.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:59 pm 
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Jeremy-- thanks for posting that interview. The most important reason for me to read this site is the great insites and information provided by the members of this board. That was very interesting and I very much appreciate you for sharing the info with us.

Give yourself a gold star.

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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:06 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Jeremy-- thanks for posting that interview. The most important reason for me to read this site is the great insites and information provided by the members of this board. That was very interesting and I very much appreciate you for sharing the info with us.

Give yourself a gold star.



You're welcome. I actually stumbled on it while looking for the quote I'm currently using in my signature.


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 Post subject: Re: An interview with Joe Kerrigan
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:23 am 
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Willton wrote:
Next question.


Image

Next question.


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