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 Post subject: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Jair Jurrjens is throwing for the Braves tonight. He is a tough right-handed pitcher. L'il LaRoche just got his first hit and has to be feeling a bit better about things. So . . . does JR protect L'il LaRoche and not expose him to a really tough match-up or does JR run him out there?

I'd put the odds at 50/50 that L'il LaRoche doesn't start tonight.

My bet? LaRoche on the pine tonight and starts games on Saturday and Sunday. Tonight's game will be a pitcher's duel. Defense will be at a premium. Runs will be hard to come by. I'm betting that JR will want better defense and a left handed bat in the lineup. Just a hunch . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:29 pm 
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Two thoughts:

1 - I wouldn't put it past JR to sit Andy. I think it's the wrong thing to do, but I've typed enough reasons why on about 213 other posts, so I'll spare all of you more of the same.

B - See 1.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:28 pm 
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Interesting question. You could argue both points.

I don't know what JR will do, and I'm not going to nitpick individual decisions, but in general Andy needs to be the "everyday" third baseman.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:35 pm 
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jurrjens is not that good, he beat the nationals wow.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Interesting question. You could argue both points.

I don't know what JR will do, and I'm not going to nitpick individual decisions, but in general Andy needs to be the "everyday" third baseman.


I agree with that...we still haven't seen enough PAs from Andy to tell anything meaningful, and his playing time has been jerked around this year. The Pirates need to know what they have in him, and it's going to take at least until the All-Star break to determine that.

Besides, what's the point of sitting him? Who else is going to fill his role? Last time I checked, Neil Walker was not doing well in AAA. I don't see the sense in bringing him up just to destroy his confidence as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:39 pm 
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DoeyDoumit wrote:
jurrjens is not that good, he beat the nationals wow.


He had a solid season last year and also threw 5.2 scoreless against the Phillies this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:44 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Jair Jurrjens is throwing for the Braves tonight. He is a tough right-handed pitcher. L'il LaRoche just got his first hit and has to be feeling a bit better about things. So . . . does JR protect L'il LaRoche and not expose him to a really tough match-up or does JR run him out there?

I'd put the odds at 50/50 that L'il LaRoche doesn't start tonight.

My bet? LaRoche on the pine tonight and starts games on Saturday and Sunday. Tonight's game will be a pitcher's duel. Defense will be at a premium. Runs will be hard to come by. I'm betting that JR will want better defense and a left handed bat in the lineup. Just a hunch . . .


I think it depends on what the roster move is when Young joins...I thought Dejan said they were making the move to put Young on the 25 man roster today...

If its Cruz, I think Andy starts...if its Andy, he probably wont start...if its someone else, its Vazquez

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:48 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
I agree with that...we still haven't seen enough PAs from Andy to tell anything meaningful, and his playing time has been jerked around this year. The Pirates need to know what they have in him, and it's going to take at least until the All-Star break to determine that.

Besides, what's the point of sitting him? Who else is going to fill his role? Last time I checked, Neil Walker was not doing well in AAA. I don't see the sense in bringing him up just to destroy his confidence as well.


My question doesn't involve what's best for the season. My question is what may be best to beat the Braves tonight. If you were the manager and wanted to put a team on the field that has the best chance of beating the Braves tonight, would you start L'il LaRoche? As Ralphie notes, there are arguments on both sides. On the one hand, L'il LaRoche may be feeling less pressure now that he doesn't have a goose egg in the hit column. On the other hand, with Jurrjens on the mound, there's a good chance that he'll put up another goose egg.

I agree that L'il LaRoche should get the vast majority of playing time for the season (or at least until the All Star Break) unless he completely tanks and is hitting less than .150 through the end of May. However, I wouldn't blame JR or get too upset if he sits him tonight.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:49 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
I think it depends on what the roster move is when Young joins...I thought Dejan said they were making the move to put Young on the 25 man roster today...

If its Cruz, I think Andy starts...if its Andy, he probably wont start...if its someone else, its Vazquez


Despite my predictions on Andy's future, I think that it would be a mistake to send him to AAA right now.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:52 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
I think it depends on what the roster move is when Young joins...I thought Dejan said they were making the move to put Young on the 25 man roster today...

If its Cruz, I think Andy starts...if its Andy, he probably wont start...if its someone else, its Vazquez


Despite my predictions on Andy's future, I think that it would be a mistake to send him to AAA right now.


I agree too, I'd run him out there everyday until there its proven he cant produce...About 40 more games...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:38 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
If you were the manager and wanted to put a team on the field that has the best chance of beating the Braves tonight, would you start L'il LaRoche?


I think that philosophy netted us guys like Morris and Burnitz. Let the kids play. Or are we on a drive for 75?


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:44 pm 
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Sitting LaRoche is a joke: This is the MAJOR leagues. Stop protecting him. This isn't little league, it's the BIG LEAGUE. Run him out there and play him, and if he's hitting under .200 at the break, which he almost certainly will, then send him down and admit the trade was a salary dump, which it was.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:44 pm 
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Andy is in the lineup.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:01 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Sitting LaRoche is a joke: This is the MAJOR leagues. Stop protecting him. This isn't little league, it's the BIG LEAGUE. Run him out there and play him, and if he's hitting under .200 at the break, which he almost certainly will, then send him down and admit the trade was a salary dump, which it was.

In 2007, Andy LaRoche was considered the Dodgers #1 prospect and the #19th overall by Baseball America. Hard to justify making a deal for a prospect rated that high and a former #1 pick as a salary dump.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:17 pm 
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Alexandria Dukes wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Sitting LaRoche is a joke: This is the MAJOR leagues. Stop protecting him. This isn't little league, it's the BIG LEAGUE. Run him out there and play him, and if he's hitting under .200 at the break, which he almost certainly will, then send him down and admit the trade was a salary dump, which it was.

In 2007, Andy LaRoche was considered the Dodgers #1 prospect and the #19th overall by Baseball America. Hard to justify making a deal for a prospect rated that high and a former #1 pick as a salary dump.


Yeah, I agree. The rationale being used to call the Bay trade a dump involves the heavy use of hindsight. Andy Laroche is sucking it up, therefore, the trade must have been a salary dump. So claim the naysayers (not me).

The trade could only have been a dump if NH knew that they were not getting fair value back for Bay's last year in a Pirates uniform. There is significant evidence to the contrary.

1. See Alexandria Duke's comment regarding Andy's prospect status at the time.
2. LaRoche wasn't the only player in the deal...the Pirates also got Brandon Moss (who had performed solidly for the Red Sox in baseball's toughest division), Craig Hansen (fingers crossed, so far so good this year), and Bryan Morris (whom we haven't even seen yet).
3. Peter Gammons, whose knowledge of baseball personnel is most likely better than anyone's on this board, praised the trade at the time from the Pirates' standpoint.

Now, you may be able to accuse NH of being a poor evaluator of talent, but you can't say based on what everyone knew at the time that the trade was a salary dump. That will not change regardless of how poorly Andy continues to perform, because the facts at the time cannot be changed. Maybe NH got duped, but he wasn't salary dumping.

I am frustrated with the trade myself from the perspective of raw talent that we acquired. I honestly expected more of a return by this point, from Brandon Moss in particular. However, it's still way too early to call the trade a bust.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:54 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
My question doesn't involve what's best for the season. My question is what may be best to beat the Braves tonight.

That kind of thinking - "how can we win one more game" - was what inspired the signings of Derek Bell, Jeremy Burnitz, etc. and the failure to select a high-ceiling, longer-development player like BJ Upton. It is the path to never-ending 90 loss seasons.

Who gives a shit about one game with the Braves. The Pirates need to find a third baseman who can field the position and hit.

Laroche is the best candidate thay have right now, by a substantial margin. Play his ass until he shows what he has.

The hit yesterday was a solid single to RF. The prior two times that Laroche hit the ball hard to RF - the first off Harang, I believe - he was then removed from the game.

Jeez, the guy is hitting the ball with authority the other way and you take him out of the lineup? Makes no sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:10 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
My question doesn't involve what's best for the season. My question is what may be best to beat the Braves tonight.

That kind of thinking - "how can we win one more game" - was what inspired the signings of Derek Bell, Jeremy Burnitz, etc. and the failure to select a high-ceiling, longer-development player like BJ Upton. It is the path to never-ending 90 loss seasons.

Who gives a shit about one game with the Braves. The Pirates need to find a third baseman who can field the position and hit.

Laroche is the best candidate thay have right now, by a substantial margin. Play his ass until he shows what he has.

The hit yesterday was a solid single to RF. The prior two times that Laroche hit the ball hard to RF - the first off Harang, I believe - he was then removed from the game.

Jeez, the guy is hitting the ball with authority the other way and you take him out of the lineup? Makes no sense.

I concur, and add that the above reason is exactly why everyone should get upset if LaRoche does not start against Jurrjens.

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 Post subject: Re: Anyone want to make a bet?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:14 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Sitting LaRoche is a joke: This is the MAJOR leagues. Stop protecting him. This isn't little league, it's the BIG LEAGUE. Run him out there and play him, and if he's hitting under .200 at the break, which he almost certainly will, then send him down and admit the trade was a salary dump, which it was.

I remember that one of the things I most liked about Jim Leyland is that he tried to find ways to put his players in a position to succeed.

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