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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:54 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
I never understood that extension, especially with it being the Pirates. A historically injury-prone catcher has ONE decent year, and they throw all kinds of money at him. Note I said decent, not great or outstanding.


Foolish attempt to win over fans.

Rod Barajas was a failure and letting Russell Martin go was a mistake. It was a 'make-up' move, but those don't work in baseball.

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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Quote:
and letting Russell Martin go was a mistake.


WHOA, WHOA, WHOA THERE PAL!

VIOLATION! : Illegal use of a comment. First warning

Everyone knows around here that you CANNOT give a 30 year old a three year contract. The drop off is too extreme. And Russell is proving that to be true


2 reasons Russell is a Bluejay

1. His hometown is Toronto and thats where he wanted to finish his career. ( Nothing the Pirates could do about that.)
2. 3 years 60 million.....( Pirates wouldnt pay the next Babe Ruth that kind of scratch)

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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:41 pm 
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JollyRoger wrote:
Maybe but Alex Avila with his absolute outlier of a 2017 probably may not be the answer either.

I don't know, JR. Avila was worth 4.6 WAR in 2011, 2.3 in 2012, 2.2 in 2014, 1.1 in 2016, and 2.5 in 2017.

Seems like 2013 and 2015 are the outliers.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:47 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
You are preaching to the choir. I'm not saying the Pirates shouldn't sign him, only that they won't. I'd love to be proven wrong.

Ditto.

Argentum wrote:
The only thing that worries me about Avila is his unusually high BABIP last year. I'm not convinced that's sustainable.

More and more very telling data are being produced about batted balls. Specifically, the BABIP on balls hit at leas 92 mph at a certain launch angle is over .600. Avila hits the ball hard, averaging 93 mph last year, and had a very good launch angle of 15%. That translates to a repeatable high BABIP.

In fact, his career BABIP is .325, which attests somewhat to his propensity for hitting the ball hard and at a good launch angle.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:35 pm 
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JollyRoger wrote:
Maybe but Alex Avila with his absolute outlier of a 2017 probably may not be the answer either.

Agree. I would much rather see what Diaz can do with a full season, especially considering the apparent direction of the team.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:29 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
I never understood that extension, especially with it being the Pirates. A historically injury-prone catcher has ONE decent year, and they throw all kinds of money at him. Note I said decent, not great or outstanding.


Foolish attempt to win over fans.

Rod Barajas was a failure and letting Russell Martin go was a mistake. It was a 'make-up' move, but those don't work in baseball.


Russell Martin’s numbers both offensively and defensively have been in a pretty steady and steep decline all 3 years in Toronto. I’d say it was the right move.

As far as Cervelli goes, I think they expected one of the young catchers to be ready and they fizzled out.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:08 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
JollyRoger wrote:
Maybe but Alex Avila with his absolute outlier of a 2017 probably may not be the answer either.

Agree. I would much rather see what Diaz can do with a full season, especially considering the apparent direction of the team.


I know, when you watch Diaz play, he looks strong and athletic (for a catcher). But when you look at the stat sheet, there is nothing there. And I don't care what year you look at. He just doesn't hit very well.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:18 am 
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Quote:
I think they expected one of the young catchers to be ready and they fizzled out.


Flamed may be a better word. And If you look at the organizational depth chart below, its rather desperate at this point. They pick up 2 free agents for the AAA level that are north of 30 years old. Next is two guys who have been in the system for 4 years and a guy thats been around for 7 years and not made it out of AA. In A+ they have a guy who has been there since 2012. An obvious bull pen guy. Then there are two young guys at the back.


Jacob Stallings 28.1 Drafted 7th Rd '12

Level -Pos-Name- R/L - Age- Acquired/date
AAA C/1B Ryan Lavarnway R 30.5 Free Agent (OAK) '17
AAA C Jackson Williams R 31.7 Free Agent (COL) '17
AA C Christian Kelley R 24.4 Drafted 11th Rd '15
AA C Jin-De Jhang L 24.7 Amateur FA (TAI) Jun'11
AA C John Bormann R 24.8 Drafted 24th Rd '15
A+ C Yoel Gonzalez R 21.5 Amateur FA (DOM) Aug'12 <----21 years old now, signed in 2012? First 14 yer old MLB signee? Dominicans?????SMH Probably 21 going on 30
A C Jason Delay R 22.9 Drafted 4th Rd (118) '17
A C Deon Stafford R 21.9 Drafted 5th Rd (148) '17

This makes me wonder why the Pirates didnt ask for Aramis Garcia from the Giants in the return for McCutchen. Maybe they did?

https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-pittsburgh-pirates


Quote:
I know, when you watch Diaz play, he looks strong and athletic (for a catcher). But when you look at the stat sheet, there is nothing there. And I don't care what year you look at. He just doesn't hit very well.


Well, we are going to have to deal with it. Because he is out of options and he's here to stay

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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:33 pm 
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That's right. Anyone who has catching is going to hold onto it for dear life. I would love to see the Bucs get Thomas Nido included in a Harrison deal, but probably not.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:28 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
I never understood that extension, especially with it being the Pirates. A historically injury-prone catcher has ONE decent year, and they throw all kinds of money at him. Note I said decent, not great or outstanding.


Foolish attempt to win over fans.

Rod Barajas was a failure and letting Russell Martin go was a mistake. It was a 'make-up' move, but those don't work in baseball.


Russell Martin’s numbers both offensively and defensively have been in a pretty steady and steep decline all 3 years in Toronto. I’d say it was the right move.


Martin has, by WAR, out produced Cervelli. The cost differential between the two is enough to conjure up a 'cheap Nutting' case.

rellimie wrote:
As far as Cervelli goes, I think they expected one of the young catchers to be ready and they fizzled out.


Fair enough. The Pirates haven't developed a good catcher since Jason Kendall, but not for lack of trying.

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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:34 pm 
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The Rotten One wrote:


Level -Pos-Name- R/L - Age- Acquired/date
AAA C/1B Ryan Lavarnway R 30.5 Free Agent (OAK) '17


'Memba when Sawks fans were raving about how Ryan Lavarnway was going to be the next Carlton Fisk?

I 'memba!

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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:39 pm 
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When Reese McGuire finally got healthy last year, he finally hit in AA, something like an .860 OPS in 150 at bats.

He is about to turn 23 and I assume will be in AAA this year. It's going to really sting if he turns out to be a good catcher.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:44 pm 
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I don't get the Diaz dislike. He certainly hit on his cameo's up here, and showed a gun for an arm.

Also, I see numbers for Jin De Jang (sp?) at Altoona. Do they translate to a MLB catcher? I don't know.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
When Reese McGuire finally got healthy last year, he finally hit in AA, something like an .860 OPS in 150 at bats.

He is about to turn 23 and I assume will be in AAA this year. It's going to really sting if he turns out to be a good catcher.


And yet, I don't think he even appears on Blue Jays prospect lists anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:22 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
When Reese McGuire finally got healthy last year, he finally hit in AA, something like an .860 OPS in 150 at bats.

He is about to turn 23 and I assume will be in AAA this year. It's going to really sting if he turns out to be a good catcher.


And yet, I don't think he even appears on Blue Jays prospect lists anymore.


According to MLB.com's prospect list, he's 21st out of 30 for the Blue Jays, but I believe that makes your point... considering he was a top 5 Pirates prospect at one point (I believe).


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:05 pm 
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TBayXXXVII wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
When Reese McGuire finally got healthy last year, he finally hit in AA, something like an .860 OPS in 150 at bats.

He is about to turn 23 and I assume will be in AAA this year. It's going to really sting if he turns out to be a good catcher.


And yet, I don't think he even appears on Blue Jays prospect lists anymore.


According to MLB.com's prospect list, he's 21st out of 30 for the Blue Jays, but I believe that makes your point... considering he was a top 5 Pirates prospect at one point (I believe).


Actually, I didn't realize he was even that high. And I've even been looking at their prospect list this winter.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:14 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I don't get the Diaz dislike. He certainly hit on his cameo's up here, and showed a gun for an arm.

Also, I see numbers for Jin De Jang (sp?) at Altoona. Do they translate to a MLB catcher? I don't know.

ZM


He just has never really hit. His minor league OPS is .681. And he's 27 and has had his share of injuiries.

So he's an ok #2, but I don't expect anything more than that.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:23 am 
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Ralphie wrote:
He just has never really hit. His minor league OPS is .681. And he's 27 and has had his share of injuiries.

So he's an ok #2, but I don't expect anything more than that.

This ^^

He's a poor man's Chris Stewart. Okay defense, really questionable hitting.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:48 am 
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Yeah, well, so much for part 1. Diamondbacks signed Avila to 2 years, $16 million - basically what I thought he was going to get and be a damn bargain at the price.

https://www.azsnakepit.com/2018/1/30/16 ... alex-avila

Hey, no worries. Pirates still hae $21 million in payroll savings left and will improve the team ASAFP.

Or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal and Bob - reasonable expenditure to improve team
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:52 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
He just has never really hit. His minor league OPS is .681. And he's 27 and has had his share of injuiries.

So he's an ok #2, but I don't expect anything more than that.

This ^^

He's a poor man's Chris Stewart. Okay defense, really questionable hitting.


I would trade Díaz to the Jays to get McGuire back.


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