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 Post subject: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:59 pm 
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http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/13220644-74/gerrit-coles-agent-scott-boras-pirates-sitting-on-economic-volcano

The fun part:
"When I hear them say, 'We're the poor Pittsburgh Pirates,' I go, 'Whoa! Just a minute,' " Boras said. "This guy (Nutting) is sitting on an economic volcano. Where else can you increase the value of your franchise to $1 billion and not have to win anything?"

Boras pointed out in 2012, as the Pirates were about to become a winner again, the team had a $52 million payroll and $178 million in revenues — a profit of about $120 million.

In 2017, as the Pirates posted a second consecutive losing season, the revenue increased to $280 million while the payroll was $96 million — a profit of $184 million.

"They increased profits by $60 million (since 2012), and they're saying they can't retain their stars?" Boras said. "It's clearly a matter of choice. They choose not to (retain players) because they want to make money."

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:09 pm 
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Yes, because payroll is the only expense.

He's not losing money but he's not banking $150MM either.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Under normal circumstances, I can't stand that SOB. But he makes a point...


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:43 pm 
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Boras is not actually quoted as saying revenue minus payroll equals profit. If he did actually say that, you can ignore that, and everything else that he said.

I have no idea what the Pirate's profit is. And I'm guessing, neither does he.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:44 pm 
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JollyRoger wrote:
Yes, because payroll is the only expense.

He's not losing money but he's not banking $150MM either.


I cant argue with that. But it seems to me that if the Pirates were a break even business then they would show us the books. Just like the President isnt hiding something by not sharing his Tax returns like every other president. Maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:48 pm 
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That's a good point. Why don't they show us their books, if they are not making big profits?

Do any teams make their books public?


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
That's a good point. Why don't they show us their books, if they are not making big profits?

Do any teams make their books public?


They don’t have to open their books. It’s a private company. I wouldn’t expect them to. There is no question though that they are very profitable. There is also no question that the franchise value has increased exponentially.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:15 pm 
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Boras is a blight on professional sports. He has no place coming off high and mighty (whether he is right or wrong in this case). He's on Earth for one thing, and one thing only... to make more $$$$ for Scott Boras.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Boras is a blight on professional sports. He has no place coming off high and mighty (whether he is right or wrong in this case). He's on Earth for one thing, and one thing only... to make more $$$$ for Scott Boras.


One could say the same about Nutting.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:29 pm 
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abitoutside wrote:
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Boras is a blight on professional sports. He has no place coming off high and mighty (whether he is right or wrong in this case). He's on Earth for one thing, and one thing only... to make more $$$$ for Scott Boras.


One could say the same about Nutting.


Touché

Well played.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:11 pm 
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abitoutside wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
That's a good point. Why don't they show us their books, if they are not making big profits?

Do any teams make their books public?


They don’t have to open their books. It’s a private company. I wouldn’t expect them to. There is no question though that they are very profitable. There is also no question that the franchise value has increased exponentially.


Just remember though, franchise value does not mean liquid cash. Low debt, profit margin, the upcoming tv contract all add to the VALUE but doesn't mean that there is a billion in CASH sitting in the bank.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:35 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
Under normal circumstances, I can't stand that SOB. But he makes a point...


He makes a point to a point. By his logic, the team should be making money, therefore they should "re-invest" that money until they don't. Like the Ruben Amaro Phillies.

That model has been proven faulty; and is likely the very recent precedent which has caused the Pirates to take alternative routes.

The Pirates probably "could have" retained their 2015 corps, but the sustainability of it past 2017/18 would become problematic quickly. What would likely happen is that they'd be tied to long-term contracts of degrading talent and forced to purge the team as they did from 2008-10 (in order to remain profitable or return to a profitable status).

The main difference between that 'blow it up' strategy and their current one is that they're attempting to maintain a respectable product on the field while rebuilding; to win 75-ish games for a year or two before returning to 85+ win status. It's a difference of a solid 5 wins/season, plus unknown amount of cash.

Unless the likes of Boras can prove that the Pirates would remain profitable when the aging stars only starting winning 70-ish games, and the fans stopped showing up, or that they could rid themselves of those bad contracts, all he's doing talking trash.

It doesn't make sense for the Pirates to come first in a race if it costs them the use of their leg; or force them to rehab it over a period of years.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:08 pm 
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For a comparison of what I mean, Here's Philly. They went from five straight postseasons, 90-100 wins, and 3 MILLION fans/year to 60-75 wins and <2 Million fans/year within three years.

Our beloved Pirates peaked at three straight "postseasons" and ~2.5 M fans down to <2 M in two years*.

Cincy dropped from postseason regular and 2 M fans to 60-win rebuilders and <2 M in two years. Minnesota fans remained loyal as the team stunk, aided by a new ballpark, but slowly and surely fell below 2 M. The decay of the Seattle Mariners has been a decade strong and they DO spend on talent.

Milwaukee fans have remained loyal. So there's a success story. Atlanta is treading water alright.

Baltimore, KC and Toronto are TBD, attendance and revenue wise. We do know that all three are on the likely decline and KC appears to be purging its roster of fan favorites.

The Pirates still have a long way to go to re-build its committed fan base. Until they can get a solid 2M up-front 'investors' (season ticket holders or consistent gate-attendees), they're going to have to ebb and flow. They can't afford to go 'all in' on aging vets only to see that corps not only fail on the field, but then have that translate to their wallet.

Fans can claim to love Cutch, but if they're not going to the ballpark to watch Old Cutch and the Bucs struggle through a 70-win season all that love is literally worthless.

The problem is literally cyclical. The Pirates can't spend until/unless the fans show up [consistently]. The fans won't show up consistently until the team wins [consistently].

What the team needs is an owner who can afford to take losses for a few years, and then another run of success to earn public good will. Both of those things are as rare as Pandas.

This is the 'hard' part of being a fan. I honestly think that the ownership is 'trying'. The problem is that their methods, while understandable and possibly even necessary, are all wrong for the market. It's a bad relationship and the solution doesn't seem clear or easy.



*now yes, part of the slow build-up and then mass exodus of fans is due to the "good will" of the current ownership. Still, it's all the more reason why Nutting SHOULDN'T overcommit to expensive vets!

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:15 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
abitoutside wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
That's a good point. Why don't they show us their books, if they are not making big profits?

Do any teams make their books public?


They don’t have to open their books. It’s a private company. I wouldn’t expect them to. There is no question though that they are very profitable. There is also no question that the franchise value has increased exponentially.


Just remember though, franchise value does not mean liquid cash. Low debt, profit margin, the upcoming tv contract all add to the VALUE but doesn't mean that there is a billion in CASH sitting in the bank.


There is plenty of liquid cash also.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:40 am 
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Please, enlighten us on your inroads.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:21 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
For a comparison of what I mean, Here's Philly. They went from five straight postseasons, 90-100 wins, and 3 MILLION fans/year to 60-75 wins and <2 Million fans/year within three years.

Our beloved Pirates peaked at three straight "postseasons" and ~2.5 M fans down to <2 M in two years*.

Cincy dropped from postseason regular and 2 M fans to 60-win rebuilders and <2 M in two years. Minnesota fans remained loyal as the team stunk, aided by a new ballpark, but slowly and surely fell below 2 M. The decay of the Seattle Mariners has been a decade strong and they DO spend on talent.

Milwaukee fans have remained loyal. So there's a success story. Atlanta is treading water alright.

Baltimore, KC and Toronto are TBD, attendance and revenue wise. We do know that all three are on the likely decline and KC appears to be purging its roster of fan favorites.

The Pirates still have a long way to go to re-build its committed fan base. Until they can get a solid 2M up-front 'investors' (season ticket holders or consistent gate-attendees), they're going to have to ebb and flow. They can't afford to go 'all in' on aging vets only to see that corps not only fail on the field, but then have that translate to their wallet.

Fans can claim to love Cutch, but if they're not going to the ballpark to watch Old Cutch and the Bucs struggle through a 70-win season all that love is literally worthless.

The problem is literally cyclical. The Pirates can't spend until/unless the fans show up [consistently]. The fans won't show up consistently until the team wins [consistently].

What the team needs is an owner who can afford to take losses for a few years, and then another run of success to earn public good will. Both of those things are as rare as Pandas.

This is the 'hard' part of being a fan. I honestly think that the ownership is 'trying'. The problem is that their methods, while understandable and possibly even necessary, are all wrong for the market. It's a bad relationship and the solution doesn't seem clear or easy.



*now yes, part of the slow build-up and then mass exodus of fans is due to the "good will" of the current ownership. Still, it's all the more reason why Nutting SHOULDN'T overcommit to expensive vets!


You are delusional...blaming lack of spending on the fans? The Pirates got PNC park with taxpayer money. The teams value has exploded since Nutting took the reigns. HE hasn't reinvested on the team. When questioned about this he gives a b.s. mouthpiece. Even if fans don't come out to the ballpark Nutting is still making a killing.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:56 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Please, enlighten us on your inroads.

ZM


The Pirates were 19th in revenues in 2016 at $265 million. Ahead of the Brewers, the DBacks, The Orioles, The Royals, etc... Just behind the Indians and White Sox.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193645/revenue-of-major-league-baseball-teams-in-2010/

They also started the year 19th in payroll that year. That was their peak in payroll rankings though and it was after a 98 win season. Every other year they are in the mid 20s. When things didn't go as planned they quickly reverted to dumping payroll at the expense of prospects to get down to the mid 20s again.

http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm#2016_payroll

This year they will still be in the same range of revenues, but they will spend substantially less on payroll. I don't get why you are so obtuse about this. Economics are not dictating the way they operate. They have plenty of cash flow year in and year out to put more money into the team. They choose not to because they value profitability over winning.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Boras bashes Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:44 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
You are delusional...blaming lack of spending on the fans? The Pirates got PNC park with taxpayer money. The teams value has exploded since Nutting took the reigns. HE hasn't reinvested on the team. When questioned about this he gives a b.s. mouthpiece. Even if fans don't come out to the ballpark Nutting is still making a killing.


No. I am saying that the problem is cyclical. It's unfair for fans to support a product that doesn't appear to invest in making the product better. Likewise, it's unfair for an owner to be expected to invest [large sums of] money at a loss hoping that consumers (fans) eventually show up.

Granted, part of starting or buying a business is the risk; or the expectation of investing money into a product to draw consumer interest. No investor wants to lose money though; no investor should be expected to invest [large sums of] money into a negative-return endeavor. It's ridiculous to expect any ownership to operate at a loss forever; or at a loss until they make minor gains (which do not offset losses).

Nutting either needs to take the risk and invest more money into the team, or sell. HOWEVER, if a new owner was found, and they did invest money into the team and STILL could not make that model profitable, it would demonstrate that perhaps Pittsburgh isn't a baseball market or that the 'cheap' model is/was the only sustainable one.

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