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 Post subject: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:47 pm 
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"And it’s refreshing to come to an environment where the team is willing to continually put resources into the club and continue to move forward and try to provide the best possible product for its fans.”

These words, which came from Gerritt Cole after being traded to the Astros, are damning of the Pirate organization's attempts to field a winner on the cheap. A couple years ago, management had a choice: continue to acquire legitimate talent to keep up with the Cards and Cubs, or sign lesser talent and hope for the best.

The latter might have been a good policy if the Pirates weren't already contenders, but they were just a fraction behind the Cards and Cubs. The acquisition of a few solid players might have been enough to keep them in contention and at least win a winner-take-all wild card playoff game, but management instead tried to do it by signing cheaper talent and hoping several players would have career years.

That's no way to build or maintain a winning franchise. Now it seems that the window for success has closed and it's time for yet another rebuild. Perhaps the Pirates should follow the Astros' model by getting rid of every decent player, losing a majority of their games, and compiling a string of number 1 picks. I'd prefer that to watching a team whose management is only "half-trying" to field a legitimate winner and having nothing to show for it in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:59 pm 
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There is nothing worse than being in "The Middle". It's purgatory. It's trading superstars for "Major League ready" talent instead of high-end talent. It's not having the balls to tear down an entire team and start from scratch. It's not having the balls to go for it when the time is right.

It's the Pittsburgh Pirates.

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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:19 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
There is nothing worse than being in "The Middle". It's purgatory. It's trading superstars for "Major League ready" talent instead of high-end talent. It's not having the balls to tear down an entire team and start from scratch. It's not having the balls to go for it when the time is right.

It's the Pittsburgh Pirates.

Yep.


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:22 pm 
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ronevensen wrote:
"And it’s refreshing to come to an environment where the team is willing to continually put resources into the club and continue to move forward and try to provide the best possible product for its fans.”

These words, which came from Gerritt Cole after being traded to the Astros, are damning of the Pirate organization's attempts to field a winner on the cheap. A couple years ago, management had a choice: continue to acquire legitimate talent to keep up with the Cards and Cubs, or sign lesser talent and hope for the best.

The latter might have been a good policy if the Pirates weren't already contenders, but they were just a fraction behind the Cards and Cubs. The acquisition of a few solid players might have been enough to keep them in contention and at least win a winner-take-all wild card playoff game, but management instead tried to do it by signing cheaper talent and hoping several players would have career years.

That's no way to build or maintain a winning franchise. Now it seems that the window for success has closed and it's time for yet another rebuild. Perhaps the Pirates should follow the Astros' model by getting rid of every decent player, losing a majority of their games, and compiling a string of number 1 picks. I'd prefer that to watching a team whose management is only "half-trying" to field a legitimate winner and having nothing to show for it in the end.

Just posted in another thread that the Pirates window should've been open through the end of Cutch's contract. Then, at that point, if you need to do a tear down and rebuild fine. But that's not how Bob "Count Every Penny" Nutting rolls.


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:29 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
ronevensen wrote:
"And it’s refreshing to come to an environment where the team is willing to continually put resources into the club and continue to move forward and try to provide the best possible product for its fans.”

These words, which came from Gerritt Cole after being traded to the Astros, are damning of the Pirate organization's attempts to field a winner on the cheap. A couple years ago, management had a choice: continue to acquire legitimate talent to keep up with the Cards and Cubs, or sign lesser talent and hope for the best.

The latter might have been a good policy if the Pirates weren't already contenders, but they were just a fraction behind the Cards and Cubs. The acquisition of a few solid players might have been enough to keep them in contention and at least win a winner-take-all wild card playoff game, but management instead tried to do it by signing cheaper talent and hoping several players would have career years.

That's no way to build or maintain a winning franchise. Now it seems that the window for success has closed and it's time for yet another rebuild. Perhaps the Pirates should follow the Astros' model by getting rid of every decent player, losing a majority of their games, and compiling a string of number 1 picks. I'd prefer that to watching a team whose management is only "half-trying" to field a legitimate winner and having nothing to show for it in the end.

Just posted in another thread that the Pirates window should've been open through the end of Cutch's contract. Then, at that point, if you need to do a tear down and rebuild fine. But that's not how Bob "Count Every Penny" Nutting rolls.


That may have been the case in 2015, but clearly not by 2016 when Marte and Kang got suspended. And it was definitely not true even when Cole and Cutch were boiling on the hot stove two weeks ago.

Kang's injury, combined with the failure to bolster the rotation to end 2015 closed the window a bit. Marte and Kang committing infractions, combined with the Cubs ascent, made it clear that the window was, more or less, closed.

There was no point in running Cutch and Cole back out there knowing they'd both be gone by 2020. Waiting until July to trade Cutch does what? MAYBE increases his value a little? Gets you some ticket sales to open the year?

Even if the FO had gone 'all in' on the OG corps; re-signed Happ, kept Walker, added Nova, Freese, Jaso, etc., it's unclear how good they would have been the last two years. They likely still would have been an 80-something tweener team.

The Pirates made some tactical errors, some of their key players regressed or didn't progress, and the stupidity of two of their stars cost them significant wins. It was a perfect storm of failure.

There was no 'easy' way to make this team a pennant-chaser after missing from 2013-15. THAT was their window and they blew it.

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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:55 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
ronevensen wrote:
"And it’s refreshing to come to an environment where the team is willing to continually put resources into the club and continue to move forward and try to provide the best possible product for its fans.”

These words, which came from Gerritt Cole after being traded to the Astros, are damning of the Pirate organization's attempts to field a winner on the cheap. A couple years ago, management had a choice: continue to acquire legitimate talent to keep up with the Cards and Cubs, or sign lesser talent and hope for the best.

The latter might have been a good policy if the Pirates weren't already contenders, but they were just a fraction behind the Cards and Cubs. The acquisition of a few solid players might have been enough to keep them in contention and at least win a winner-take-all wild card playoff game, but management instead tried to do it by signing cheaper talent and hoping several players would have career years.

That's no way to build or maintain a winning franchise. Now it seems that the window for success has closed and it's time for yet another rebuild. Perhaps the Pirates should follow the Astros' model by getting rid of every decent player, losing a majority of their games, and compiling a string of number 1 picks. I'd prefer that to watching a team whose management is only "half-trying" to field a legitimate winner and having nothing to show for it in the end.

Just posted in another thread that the Pirates window should've been open through the end of Cutch's contract. Then, at that point, if you need to do a tear down and rebuild fine. But that's not how Bob "Count Every Penny" Nutting rolls.


That may have been the case in 2015, but clearly not by 2016 when Marte and Kang got suspended. And it was definitely not true even when Cole and Cutch were boiling on the hot stove two weeks ago.

Kang's injury, combined with the failure to bolster the rotation to end 2015 closed the window a bit. Marte and Kang committing infractions, combined with the Cubs ascent, made it clear that the window was, more or less, closed.

There was no point in running Cutch and Cole back out there knowing they'd both be gone by 2020. Waiting until July to trade Cutch does what? MAYBE increases his value a little? Gets you some ticket sales to open the year?

Even if the FO had gone 'all in' on the OG corps; re-signed Happ, kept Walker, added Nova, Freese, Jaso, etc., it's unclear how good they would have been the last two years. They likely still would have been an 80-something tweener team.

The Pirates made some tactical errors, some of their key players regressed or didn't progress, and the stupidity of two of their stars cost them significant wins. It was a perfect storm of failure.

There was no 'easy' way to make this team a pennant-chaser after missing from 2013-15. THAT was their window and they blew it.

They won 98 games in 2015. They were losing, I believe, Burnett and Happ( although they didn’t have to). Why should their window have been closed?


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
They won 98 games in 2015. They were losing, I believe, Burnett and Happ( although they didn’t have to). Why should their window have been closed?


So you think that if they had kept Happ and Walker, then added all of the other guys that they did, they would have magically gone from 78 wins to 88+???

Cervelli and Marte played 30 less games in 2016. Kang missed nearly 60 due to his injury. Cole and Cutch regressed. Liriano imploded. Niese and Vogelson were not Burnett and Morton.

No, their window was not closed, but a ton of things happened which made it hard to justify 'running it back out' or 'doubling down' for 2017. Kang and Marte getting suspended pretty much closed the window.

2013-15 was the window. 2016 was a disaster/regression year. 2017 might have been better than 2016, at least, but we'll never know. 2016-17 are 'what ifs'?. Maybe the window was still open. If it was, then all the shit that happened cost it two more runs.

The 2018 Pirates were not likely to be close.

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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:06 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
They won 98 games in 2015. They were losing, I believe, Burnett and Happ( although they didn’t have to). Why should their window have been closed?


So you think that if they had kept Happ and Walker, then added all of the other guys that they did, they would have magically gone from 78 wins to 88+???

Cervelli and Marte played 30 less games in 2016. Kang missed nearly 60 due to his injury. Cole and Cutch regressed. Liriano imploded. Niese and Vogelson were not Burnett and Morton.

No, their window was not closed, but a ton of things happened which made it hard to justify 'running it back out' or 'doubling down' for 2017. Kang and Marte getting suspended pretty much closed the window.

2013-15 was the window. 2016 was a disaster/regression year. 2017 might have been better than 2016, at least, but we'll never know. 2016-17 are 'what ifs'?. Maybe the window was still open. If it was, then all the shit that happened cost it two more runs.

The 2018 Pirates were not likely to be close.

After winning 98 games and not having a ton of turnover almost any team should expect to compete. It wasn’t like 1992 when everyone knew the last group of great players was gone. If they keep Happ and add a pitcher they are right back in the division and wild card hunt. As many have pointed out here, if Cutch and Cole don’t underperform(for at least part of the year) they would’ve been close to contention.

If you approach 2016 that way then that changes the outlook for 2017 and 2018. Not saying they would’ve made playoffs all these years, just suggesting that the window of opportunity should’ve remained open with the proper commitment from management.


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:31 am 
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The Pirates inability to contend to the end the past 2 years has just as much to do with Gerrit Cole's ERA ballooning a run and a 1/2 as it does player transactions. Maybe we could've watched Cole get lit up in a WC game at the cost of Meadows and/or Keller and/or Glasnow, et al if we had added some help. STFU Gerrit Cole. I'm sure not crying that he's gone.


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:33 am 
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Jack Round Tripper wrote:
The Pirates inability to contend to the end the past 2 years has just as much to do with Gerrit Cole's ERA ballooning a run and a 1/2 as it does player transactions. Maybe we could've watched Cole get lit up in a WC game at the cost of Meadows and/or Keller and/or Glasnow, et al if we had added some help. STFU Gerrit Cole. I'm sure not crying that he's gone.


I disagree. Again dont forget what they say. They said they were unprepared to fix the problem of Kang not being able to obtain a visa in early 2016. And the loss of offense was a huge problem for them. That was the excuse. Stephan Drew, Gordan Beckham both signed after the Kang fact. The Pirates didnt want to spend the money. It was easier to be caught off gaurd. Instead of fixing the problem for 2017 (now) (Which they still havent, by the way) they quit.

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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:53 am 
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Not me, I don't want no rebuild. They did that already.

They went for 20 years where being in the middle was a level they could never get to. I don't want to go back to those days.

Trading a couple of guys who are approaching free agency is standard operating procedure, for the business model they have adopted.


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Remember when Gerrit Cole asked for a modest raise after his CY young caliber season?
Keeping your best players happy should be a goal, especially when they are coming off an amazing season.

Pirates are cheap, and the organization is a disgrace.

http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/1004 ... ary-league

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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:08 pm 
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I can't wait to see what they do with the $20 million of payroll they just saved trading those two players. There is an unprecedented amount of free agents out there who could help this team contend this year, at least for a wild card. Will we sign any of them? Not holding my breath.


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:14 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
I can't wait to see what they do with the $20 million of payroll they just saved trading those two players. There is an unprecedented amount of free agents out there who could help this team contend this year, at least for a wild card. Will we sign any of them? Not holding my breath.


Some of it just went to Rivero

Eric Hosmer, Mike Moustakas, Lorenzo Cain, Lance Lynn, Alex Cobb, Greg Holland, and Jake Arrieta, all have Qualifying Offers so they are immediately off the list as none of them are worth a 1st round draft pick.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018-mlb ... irection-1

Who would you like (realistically) if you were the GM if you had 20 million to spend?


Last edited by rellimie on Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:15 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Remember when Gerrit Cole asked for a modest raise after his CY young caliber season?
Keeping your best players happy should be a goal, especially when they are coming off an amazing season.

Pirates are cheap, and the organization is a disgrace.

http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/1004 ... ary-league


With the way he pitched after that I'm glad they didn't give it to him.


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:23 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Remember when Gerrit Cole asked for a modest raise after his CY young caliber season?
Keeping your best players happy should be a goal, especially when they are coming off an amazing season.

Pirates are cheap, and the organization is a disgrace.

http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/1004 ... ary-league


With the way he pitched after that I'm glad they didn't give it to him.


You're glad they didn't give up that extra 150,000 dollars to him? Because he went from a 4.5 WAR pitcher to a 1.6 and 2.8 the following seasons? Maybe his performance dipped because of how badly the organization treated him.

I bet Cole returns to a form similar if not better than 2015 now that he is out of Pittsburgh.

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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:21 pm 
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The Rotten One wrote:
Jack Round Tripper wrote:
The Pirates inability to contend to the end the past 2 years has just as much to do with Gerrit Cole's ERA ballooning a run and a 1/2 as it does player transactions. Maybe we could've watched Cole get lit up in a WC game at the cost of Meadows and/or Keller and/or Glasnow, et al if we had added some help. STFU Gerrit Cole. I'm sure not crying that he's gone.


I disagree. Again dont forget what they say. They said they were unprepared to fix the problem of Kang not being able to obtain a visa in early 2016. And the loss of offense was a huge problem for them. That was the excuse. Stephan Drew, Gordan Beckham both signed after the Kang fact. The Pirates didnt want to spend the money. It was easier to be caught off gaurd. Instead of fixing the problem for 2017 (now) (Which they still havent, by the way) they quit.


Freese is better than both Drew and Beckham. Moran is the potential fix (granted he may not be the fix).


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Remember when Gerrit Cole asked for a modest raise after his CY young caliber season?
Keeping your best players happy should be a goal, especially when they are coming off an amazing season.

Pirates are cheap, and the organization is a disgrace.

http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/1004 ... ary-league


With the way he pitched after that I'm glad they didn't give it to him.


You're glad they didn't give up that extra 150,000 dollars to him? Because he went from a 4.5 WAR pitcher to a 1.6 and 2.8 the following seasons? Maybe his performance dipped because of how badly the organization treated him.

I bet Cole returns to a form similar if not better than 2015 now that he is out of Pittsburgh.


If that was the problem, I'm glad the cry baby is gone. Seriously? He's going to risk MILLIONS of dollars to pitch like crap because he's mad about $150k? I don't see that as even remotely plausible.


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:18 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
I can't wait to see what they do with the $20 million of payroll they just saved trading those two players. There is an unprecedented amount of free agents out there who could help this team contend this year, at least for a wild card. Will we sign any of them? Not holding my breath.


Some of it just went to Rivero

Eric Hosmer, Mike Moustakas, Lorenzo Cain, Lance Lynn, Alex Cobb, Greg Holland, and Jake Arrieta, all have Qualifying Offers so they are immediately off the list as none of them are worth a 1st round draft pick.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018-mlb ... irection-1

Who would you like (realistically) if you were the GM if you had 20 million to spend?


Not that he would want to come necessarily, but I would contact Melky Cabrera's agent. I also think Cargo would be amenable to a one year deal to build his value back up. Jay Bruce just signed for 3 years, $39 million. Both of those guys should be well south of that. Eduardo Nunez is also out there, but he is getting a lot of interest. No way we'll win a bidding war there. Possibly Seth Smith.


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 Post subject: Re: getting by on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:36 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Who would you like (realistically) if you were the GM if you had 20 million to spend?


This is a big part of what is wrong. We are conditioned to be frugal as fans because of how poor the Pirates management and ownership has been. How dumb is that?!? There isn't a salary cap to worry about and they have millions upon millions in "financial flexibility" saved up.

There should only be a few circumstances where a certain player isn't realistic. I'm talking contracts like Pujols, Kershaw, A-Rod, Harper, etc.

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