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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
People are enomored by what [BEll] might become, moreso than what he is.


Uh... that's how sports works.

At one point in time people were enamored with Cutch, Marte and Polanco by what they might become, moreso than that they were. Cutch became an MVP. Marte was on the cusp before injuries and suspension. Polanco is basically Jose Guillen 2.0.

Josh Bell is only 25 with a mere 204 Major League games to his credit. Let's maybe give him at least another year before we start calling him 'overrated'.

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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:09 pm 
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I'm talking about what he is right now. I don't have to wait another year. A lot of people think that he had a better year than what he actually had. They overrated him. It's an opinion, one that I am entitled to.


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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:23 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
Slugging percentage-

Frazier .399
Bell .466

OPS

Frazier .743
Bell .800

When I think "run production," I think these numbers are important. And yes, they don't lie. If you can cherry-pick, so can I.


Just for clarity sake, you hold SLG and OPS has a bigger representation on a players productivity than WAR?


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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:26 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
People are enomored by what [BEll] might become, moreso than what he is.


Uh... that's how sports works.

At one point in time people were enamored with Cutch, Marte and Polanco by what they might become, moreso than that they were. Cutch became an MVP. Marte was on the cusp before injuries and suspension. Polanco is basically Jose Guillen 2.0.

Josh Bell is only 25 with a mere 204 Major League games to his credit. Let's maybe give him at least another year before we start calling him 'overrated'.


Adam Frazier has a mere 187 games played and has been worth double the WAR of Josh Bell.

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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:55 pm 
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Which shows how ridiculously flawed WAR is. Frazier suuuuuuuuuuuucks on defense.


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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:54 pm 
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Yeah but Bell sucks on defense too, and Frazier is a better baserunner.


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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:56 pm 
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WAR is just one way of looking at things. If Bell is going to give you adequate defense and post an OPS north of .800, I doubt that Frazier could match that value.


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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Yeah but Bell sucks on defense too, and Frazier is a better baserunner.


Bell’s defense did nothing but improve as the season progressed, Frazier was kind of flat.

I’m not even sure how we can be comparing Bell and Frazier. I like Frazier but he can’t come close to Bell’s ceiling/talent.


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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
People are enomored by what [BEll] might become, moreso than what he is.


Uh... that's how sports works.

At one point in time people were enamored with Cutch, Marte and Polanco by what they might become, moreso than that they were. Cutch became an MVP. Marte was on the cusp before injuries and suspension. Polanco is basically Jose Guillen 2.0.

Josh Bell is only 25 with a mere 204 Major League games to his credit. Let's maybe give him at least another year before we start calling him 'overrated'.


Adam Frazier has a mere 187 games played and has been worth double the WAR of Josh Bell.


Bell played 147 games at 1B.

Frazier played 67 games in the outfield, then another 44 in the infield.

That plays a factor why is WAR was higher. (Also, by BRef.com, Bell had a 1.7 WAR to Frazier's 1.8.)

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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Over the last 2 years Bell had a WAR of 1.2 and Frazier 2.3.

I agree that Bell has a lot more potential than Frazier, but I can't believe how confidently and blindly someone can actually proclaim Bell to be the face of the franchise.

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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:11 am 
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Ryann wrote:
Over the last 2 years Bell had a WAR of 1.2 and Frazier 2.3.


Again, sample size and position, among other factors, matter. SABR metrics are great and all, but they're not meant to be the be-all/end-all which determines "this is a team's franchise player, statistically".

Ryann wrote:
I agree that Bell has a lot more potential than Frazier, but I can't believe how confidently and blindly someone can actually proclaim Bell to be the face of the franchise.


Because he's 25 years old and hit 26 HR last year as a rookie. He was also a four-time Baseball America, and five time Baseball Prospectus, Top-100 prospect.

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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:31 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Over the last 2 years Bell had a WAR of 1.2 and Frazier 2.3.


Again, sample size and position, among other factors, matter. SABR metrics are great and all, but they're not meant to be the be-all/end-all which determines "this is a team's franchise player, statistically".

Ryann wrote:
I agree that Bell has a lot more potential than Frazier, but I can't believe how confidently and blindly someone can actually proclaim Bell to be the face of the franchise.


Because he's 25 years old and hit 26 HR last year as a rookie. He was also a four-time Baseball America, and five time Baseball Prospectus, Top-100 prospect.


Pedro Alvarez is the perfect example of why you should not put the cart before the horse. His best season was his rookie season, for the most part. He actually never got better. As far as I'm concerned, the "face of the franchise" can't be someone who hasn't shown they can be productive for multiple years. To me, for now, the face of the franchise is either Harrison or Mercer. The fact that they aren't all that great, is an indictment on our GM and nothing else.


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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:44 pm 
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TBayXXXVII wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Over the last 2 years Bell had a WAR of 1.2 and Frazier 2.3.


Again, sample size and position, among other factors, matter. SABR metrics are great and all, but they're not meant to be the be-all/end-all which determines "this is a team's franchise player, statistically".

Ryann wrote:
I agree that Bell has a lot more potential than Frazier, but I can't believe how confidently and blindly someone can actually proclaim Bell to be the face of the franchise.


Because he's 25 years old and hit 26 HR last year as a rookie. He was also a four-time Baseball America, and five time Baseball Prospectus, Top-100 prospect.


Pedro Alvarez is the perfect example of why you should not put the cart before the horse. His best season was his rookie season, for the most part. He actually never got better. As far as I'm concerned, the "face of the franchise" can't be someone who hasn't shown they can be productive for multiple years. To me, for now, the face of the franchise is either Harrison or Mercer. The fact that they aren't all that great, is an indictment on our GM and nothing else.


Pedro's best season, both by traditional and SABR metrics, was 2013; not his rookie season.

In 2013, his fourth season, he played 154 games, hit 36 HR w/ 100 RBI, posted a 3.3 WAR, and made the All-Star team. (He also hit 3 postseason HR in the Divisional Series vs. St. Louis.)

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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:59 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Pedro's best season, both by traditional and SABR metrics, was 2013; not his rookie season.

In 2013, his fourth season, he played 154 games, hit 36 HR w/ 100 RBI, posted a 3.3 WAR, and made the All-Star team. (He also hit 3 postseason HR in the Divisional Series vs. St. Louis.)



That's only because he played a full season. Had the Pirates been more worried about winning than saving a couple million dollars, Alvarez's numbers prorate to be similar to 2013. Opportunity + situation boasted Alvarez's numbers... plus he was very streaky. Alvarez sucked about 75-80% of each season he played, after his rookie season. He always had a few big streaks where he'd hit like a monster, which inflated his numbers. The problem is, that only happened 20-25% of any season. The rest, he was the worst hitter on the team... aside from the pitchers.


Last edited by TBayXXXVII on Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:44 am 
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I think Bell will most definitely be the face of the franchise. This is one title where numbers aren't the end all, be all...it's about the entire package. Bell hits HR's, is a big strong kid with a big smile and a great attitude, and is great with fans and media. Put all that together with some pretty high potential and I don't think there's any doubt he quickly becomes the face of the franchise.


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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:45 pm 
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TBayXXXVII wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
Pedro's best season, both by traditional and SABR metrics, was 2013; not his rookie season.

In 2013, his fourth season, he played 154 games, hit 36 HR w/ 100 RBI, posted a 3.3 WAR, and made the All-Star team. (He also hit 3 postseason HR in the Divisional Series vs. St. Louis.)



That's only because he played a full season. Had the Pirates been more worried about winning than saving a couple million dollars, Alvarez's numbers prorate to be similar to 2013. Opportunity + situation boasted Alvarez's numbers... plus he was very streaky. Alvarez sucked about 75-80% of each season he played, after his rookie season. He always had a few big streaks where he'd hit like a monster, which inflated his numbers. The problem is, that only happened 20-25% of any season. The rest, he was the worst hitter on the team... aside from the pitchers.


Agreed there.

Merely saying that Pedro developed as a hitter, but bombed as a fielder. He wasn't a rookie flash, but a constant enigma.

It's true that the Bell-Pedro comparison is worrisome, but other players, such as Cutch and Marte, showed early flashes and turned into MVP-caliber players.

Let's not be overly pessimistic and assume all young Pirates will go the way of Pedro, or even... *gulp* Chris Duffy (or Chad Hermansen, Tike Redman, Luis Castillo...)

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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:35 am 
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There is no comparison between Pedro and Bell. Pedro never had pitch recognition that Bell already has, and anyone watching Bell's advancement in the field over the year had to be impressed. Bell at least ties his leather gloved together.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:39 am 
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Almost all young players gradually improve on defense as they gain experience. I expect that to happen with Bell. In fact we saw it happening over the course of last season.

Pedro was an exception. He came up as an ok fielder, but then developed the yips, and it basically ruined him as a ballplayer.


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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:46 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
TBayXXXVII wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
Pedro's best season, both by traditional and SABR metrics, was 2013; not his rookie season.

In 2013, his fourth season, he played 154 games, hit 36 HR w/ 100 RBI, posted a 3.3 WAR, and made the All-Star team. (He also hit 3 postseason HR in the Divisional Series vs. St. Louis.)



That's only because he played a full season. Had the Pirates been more worried about winning than saving a couple million dollars, Alvarez's numbers prorate to be similar to 2013. Opportunity + situation boasted Alvarez's numbers... plus he was very streaky. Alvarez sucked about 75-80% of each season he played, after his rookie season. He always had a few big streaks where he'd hit like a monster, which inflated his numbers. The problem is, that only happened 20-25% of any season. The rest, he was the worst hitter on the team... aside from the pitchers.


Agreed there.

Merely saying that Pedro developed as a hitter, but bombed as a fielder. He wasn't a rookie flash, but a constant enigma.

It's true that the Bell-Pedro comparison is worrisome, but other players, such as Cutch and Marte, showed early flashes and turned into MVP-caliber players.

Let's not be overly pessimistic and assume all young Pirates will go the way of Pedro, or even... *gulp* Chris Duffy (or Chad Hermansen, Tike Redman, Luis Castillo...)


I wouldn't exactly call it pessimism as much as diligent. I'm just not going to call someone "the face of the franchise" after his rookie season which was nothing more than "decent" for a rookie.


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 Post subject: Re: Face of The Team
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:56 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
There is no comparison between Pedro and Bell. Pedro never had pitch recognition that Bell already has, and anyone watching Bell's advancement in the field over the year had to be impressed. Bell at least ties his leather gloved together.

ZM


No one is "comparing" Pedro and Bell as players.


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