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 Post subject: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:19 pm 
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Someone posted this on MLB Trade Rumors as a comment on the Rivero signing.

“There’s a bigger picture here for the Pirates. If you forget about McCutchen and Cole and look at it – Now you have hard throwing, young bullpen pieces Rivero, Felix, added Crick… They already had an in house prospect to replace McCutchen in CF in Meadows. They added a young left handed hitting 3B in Moran who needed a place to play… Bell and Moran on the corners of the IF. Marte and Polanco in the OF. Musgrove can start or swing out of the bullpen and you have Glasnow, Brault, and Kingham ready for a spot in the rotation to replace Cole. Plus, they have payroll space now. The bigger picture that comes together is sometimes more significant than the one or two moves that people get mad about… In fact you can trade players with a year or two left no matter who they are. – add young talent – then re allocate the money. It’s not rebuilding ..it’s chemistry change.”

It’s possible although not likely that with the extra payroll they could actually take on the contract or 2 and actually be competitive in 2018. If Bell takes a step forward and Moran works out they can replace Cutch’s offensive production. The defense actually improves by not having Cutch out there. The bullpen will be ridiculously good. Starting pitching is the big question mark. I don’t think it will be hard to replace what Cole has done the past 2 years and with improved bullpen you may just need to be okay.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:25 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Someone posted this on MLB Trade Rumors as a comment on the Rivero signing.

“There’s a bigger picture here for the Pirates. If you forget about McCutchen and Cole and look at it – Now you have hard throwing, young bullpen pieces Rivero, Felix, added Crick… They already had an in house prospect to replace McCutchen in CF in Meadows. They added a young left handed hitting 3B in Moran who needed a place to play… Bell and Moran on the corners of the IF. Marte and Polanco in the OF. Musgrove can start or swing out of the bullpen and you have Glasnow, Brault, and Kingham ready for a spot in the rotation to replace Cole. Plus, they have payroll space now. The bigger picture that comes together is sometimes more significant than the one or two moves that people get mad about… In fact you can trade players with a year or two left no matter who they are. – add young talent – then re allocate the money. It’s not rebuilding ..it’s chemistry change.”

It’s possible although not likely that with the extra payroll they could actually take on the contract or 2 and actually be competitive in 2018. If Bell takes a step forward and Moran works out they can replace Cutch’s offensive production. The defense actually improves by not having Cutch out there. The bullpen will be ridiculously good. Starting pitching is the big question mark. I don’t think it will be hard to replace what Cole has done the past 2 years and with improved bullpen you may just need to be okay.


Or they won’t spend any more money struggle to win 70 games and then do the Pirate thing and blame the fans not showing up for a losing team with no star power as the reason they don’t spend when we all know they will never spend regardless of the situation.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:30 pm 
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MoTownWV wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Someone posted this on MLB Trade Rumors as a comment on the Rivero signing.

“There’s a bigger picture here for the Pirates. If you forget about McCutchen and Cole and look at it – Now you have hard throwing, young bullpen pieces Rivero, Felix, added Crick… They already had an in house prospect to replace McCutchen in CF in Meadows. They added a young left handed hitting 3B in Moran who needed a place to play… Bell and Moran on the corners of the IF. Marte and Polanco in the OF. Musgrove can start or swing out of the bullpen and you have Glasnow, Brault, and Kingham ready for a spot in the rotation to replace Cole. Plus, they have payroll space now. The bigger picture that comes together is sometimes more significant than the one or two moves that people get mad about… In fact you can trade players with a year or two left no matter who they are. – add young talent – then re allocate the money. It’s not rebuilding ..it’s chemistry change.”

It’s possible although not likely that with the extra payroll they could actually take on the contract or 2 and actually be competitive in 2018. If Bell takes a step forward and Moran works out they can replace Cutch’s offensive production. The defense actually improves by not having Cutch out there. The bullpen will be ridiculously good. Starting pitching is the big question mark. I don’t think it will be hard to replace what Cole has done the past 2 years and with improved bullpen you may just need to be okay.


Or they won’t spend any more money struggle to win 70 games and then do the Pirate thing and blame the fans not showing up for a losing team with no star power as the reason they don’t spend when we all know they will never spend regardless of the situation.


I actually don’t think they are really worse than last year at this point. Assuming that Marte players an entire year, Polanco at some point has to get better, Bell progresses, and Moran contributes as he will be an upgrade over Freese, they shouldn’t be that far off offensively than they were in 2017. I think the rotation is a push, and the Bullpen which blew a lot of wins for them in 2017 is significantly better.

I’m wagering that their 2018 win total will be at or above 2017.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:53 pm 
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2018 is going to be a growing pains year.

Your vision is possible, the question is can a team built like that win a pennant?

Is this franchise playing to get to the playoffs or win when they get there?

The Pirates pretty much had to trade Cole and Cutch; this corps was done. The return wasn't awful, but... it's... underwhelming.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:04 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
2018 is going to be a growing pains year.

Your vision is possible, the question is can a team built like that win a pennant?

Is this franchise playing to get to the playoffs or win when they get there?

The Pirates pretty much had to trade Cole and Cutch; this corps was done. The return wasn't awful, but... it's... underwhelming.


No, they can’t win a pennant as of now. They are basically the same as last year. Down on offense, up on pitching, up on defense.

The trades weren’t wins but weren’t losses IMO. They were probably pretty equal for all parties involved.

Going forward, Harrison, Freese, S-Rod, and Cervelli should probably all go. Roll with Diaz at C. Maybe (and this is tough for me to say as I’ve made no secret about how I feel about him) bring in Walker on 1 or 2 year deal to play 2B/3B while you figure out what you got in Moran, Mormoff, Frazier, and perhaps Newman this year.

Marte, Polanco, and probably Meadows in the OF.

I can see though why Huntington has stated they are back to building for 2019. MLB TV money coming in this year plus the local contract renewal in 2019. If a new “core” emerges this year they could have some cash to build around them.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:16 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
2018 is going to be a growing pains year.

Your vision is possible, the question is can a team built like that win a pennant?

Is this franchise playing to get to the playoffs or win when they get there?

The Pirates pretty much had to trade Cole and Cutch; this corps was done. The return wasn't awful, but... it's... underwhelming.


No, they can’t win a pennant as of now. They are basically the same as last year. Down on offense, up on pitching, up on defense.

The trades weren’t wins but weren’t losses IMO. They were probably pretty equal for all parties involved.

Going forward, Harrison, Freese, S-Rod, and Cervelli should probably all go. Roll with Diaz at C. Maybe (and this is tough for me to say as I’ve made no secret about how I feel about him) bring in Walker on 1 or 2 year deal to play 2B/3B while you figure out what you got in Moran, Mormoff, Frazier, and perhaps Newman this year.

Marte, Polanco, and probably Meadows in the OF.

I can see though why Huntington has stated they are back to building for 2019. MLB TV money coming in this year plus the local contract renewal in 2019. If a new “core” emerges this year they could have some cash to build around them.


Local TV contact coming up for renewal and they trade their 2 most recognizable assets and have yet to do anything to improve the team. As you say at best they are the same as last season and that was out of contention before August. Great way to get value on that contract renewal.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:47 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Going forward, Harrison, Freese, S-Rod, and Cervelli should probably all go.


Agreed. They were all cogs in a veteran, pennant-chasing squad. Only one of them is now necessary, or worth their salaries. They deserve better, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:21 pm 
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It's basically going to come down to the starting pitching. Taillon's ERA was like 4.5 but the peripherals suggest that he was much better and the BABIP against suggests that he was quite unlucky. Williams and Kuhl appear to be solid rotation pieces and any progression from them will be much welcomed. If Glasnow could somehow get the walks under control (even in the 3.5-4 BB/9) he's a valuable rotation piece with the potential to dominate.

If we're going to start trading guys might as well add Nova to that list. He adds nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:46 pm 
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JollyRoger wrote:
It's basically going to come down to the starting pitching. Taillon's ERA was like 4.5 but the peripherals suggest that he was much better and the BABIP against suggests that he was quite unlucky. Williams and Kuhl appear to be solid rotation pieces and any progression from them will be much welcomed. If Glasnow could somehow get the walks under control (even in the 3.5-4 BB/9) he's a valuable rotation piece with the potential to dominate.

If we're going to start trading guys might as well add Nova to that list. He adds nothing.


Tailion, Nova, Williams, Kuhl, Brault, Kingham, Musgrove, Glasnow for 5 spots.

The bullpen might end up being the best in baseball though.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:58 am 
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rellimie wrote:
JollyRoger wrote:
It's basically going to come down to the starting pitching. Taillon's ERA was like 4.5 but the peripherals suggest that he was much better and the BABIP against suggests that he was quite unlucky. Williams and Kuhl appear to be solid rotation pieces and any progression from them will be much welcomed. If Glasnow could somehow get the walks under control (even in the 3.5-4 BB/9) he's a valuable rotation piece with the potential to dominate.

If we're going to start trading guys might as well add Nova to that list. He adds nothing.


Tailion, Nova, Williams, Kuhl, Brault, Kingham, Musgrove, Glasnow for 5 spots.

The bullpen might end up being the best in baseball though.


And don't forget Kingham and possibly Keller in the second half. Not worried about starting pitching. Worried even less about the bull pen. We need offense.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:02 pm 
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I mean I'm a little worried about it. None of those guys other than Taillon has shown themselves to be more than a 4 or 5 guy on a good team. If one or two step up they'll have a good rotation but I could see the results being similar to last year as well.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Kuhl has the ability and stuff to grow into way more than a 4.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:04 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Kuhl has the ability and stuff to grow into way more than a 4.

ZM


Agreed. I have been wanting to post this for a while but I didn't want to jinx him. I would not be surprised if next year at this time we are considering him a top-of-the-rotation arm. He just needs to harness the stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:05 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Someone posted this on MLB Trade Rumors as a comment on the Rivero signing.

“There’s a bigger picture here for the Pirates. If you forget about McCutchen and Cole and look at it – Now you have hard throwing, young bullpen pieces Rivero, Felix, added Crick… They already had an in house prospect to replace McCutchen in CF in Meadows. They added a young left handed hitting 3B in Moran who needed a place to play… Bell and Moran on the corners of the IF. Marte and Polanco in the OF. Musgrove can start or swing out of the bullpen and you have Glasnow, Brault, and Kingham ready for a spot in the rotation to replace Cole. Plus, they have payroll space now. The bigger picture that comes together is sometimes more significant than the one or two moves that people get mad about… In fact you can trade players with a year or two left no matter who they are. – add young talent – then re allocate the money. It’s not rebuilding ..it’s chemistry change.”

It’s possible although not likely that with the extra payroll they could actually take on the contract or 2 and actually be competitive in 2018. If Bell takes a step forward and Moran works out they can replace Cutch’s offensive production. The defense actually improves by not having Cutch out there. The bullpen will be ridiculously good. Starting pitching is the big question mark. I don’t think it will be hard to replace what Cole has done the past 2 years and with improved bullpen you may just need to be okay.


You are insane to suggest that when the time comes, the Pirates will spend money. They won 98 freaking games in 2015. The money was never spent.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:54 pm 
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JollyRoger wrote:
I mean I'm a little worried about it. None of those guys other than Taillon has shown themselves to be more than a 4 or 5 guy on a good team. If one or two step up they'll have a good rotation but I could see the results being similar to last year as well.


J.T. and Nova are solid, but both are #2 guys, at best. J.T. also has a history with injuries already.

Worst case this staff turns into the Kip Wells/Josh Fogg era (production, not talent, wise). Those Giles-Kendall-Jack-Freddy Pirates were perennial 70-win squads that couldn't break through; that looks to be this one's ceiling at the moment (barring said breakout).

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Harrison wants out and I don't blame him.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2754 ... ing-league

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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:44 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
JollyRoger wrote:
I mean I'm a little worried about it. None of those guys other than Taillon has shown themselves to be more than a 4 or 5 guy on a good team. If one or two step up they'll have a good rotation but I could see the results being similar to last year as well.


J.T. and Nova are solid, but both are #2 guys, at best. J.T. also has a history with injuries already.

Worst case this staff turns into the Kip Wells/Josh Fogg era (production, not talent, wise). Those Giles-Kendall-Jack-Freddy Pirates were perennial 70-win squads that couldn't break through; that looks to be this one's ceiling at the moment (barring said breakout).

Nova had half a decent season. He is not a #2. He should be traded at this point...or used as a BP pitcher.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:00 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
JollyRoger wrote:
It's basically going to come down to the starting pitching. Taillon's ERA was like 4.5 but the peripherals suggest that he was much better and the BABIP against suggests that he was quite unlucky. Williams and Kuhl appear to be solid rotation pieces and any progression from them will be much welcomed. If Glasnow could somehow get the walks under control (even in the 3.5-4 BB/9) he's a valuable rotation piece with the potential to dominate.

If we're going to start trading guys might as well add Nova to that list. He adds nothing.


Tailion, Nova, Williams, Kuhl, Brault, Kingham, Musgrove, Glasnow for 5 spots.

The bullpen might end up being the best in baseball though.


With that corp, maybe they should use a minor league approach early on. Use Taillon and Nova as the #1 and #2, then pair up the other 6 in 2-man tandems for the other 3 starting spots. In the first month, you may be able to go with 2 3-man tandems with the frequency of off days, then shift to 3 2-man tandems after that. Gives the kids a chance to earn more playing time at the big league level without getting tired and you won't over use your bullpen if a pitcher struggles. In May or June, they can re-evaluate the situation.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018 Offseason
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:54 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Nova had half a decent season. He is not a #2. He should be traded at this point...or used as a BP pitcher.


He's been here for 1.5 season of which 1 was spectacular. 0.5 was subpar and could be traced to never having pitched a full season and getting tired, or maybe not.

He's solid.

ZM

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