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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:10 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
They are not in rebuild mode? :lol:

How is this not a full rebuild? They traded their two best players for next to nothing in return. Purely to save money. If they wanted to tread water to see how competitive they would be they would have waited to make these moves in July. The fans should be outraged, not trying to justify another salary dump.


Bell, Marte, Polanco and Taillon are still on the team. Meadows will be up soon.

If the Pirates were in "full rebuild" mode, they would have traded Cole and Cutch for more long-term prospects. They're splitting the difference. They're trying to extend the last of their corps and develop at the same time.

I'm not saying I like it, or that it's smart, but it's pretty clear what their vision is.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:14 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
Ryann wrote:
The return for McCutchen is absolutely inexcusable. A not so good relief pitcher and a fringe prospect for the face of the franchise, and the teams best player. All in the name of saving money. This trade was a salary dump.


Agreed, except that it's better to get SOMETHING for Cutch than nothing (when he leaves next year).

The Pirates had no leverage.

I’d have rather had one more year of Cutch than getting a project outfielder and our 815th relief pitcher...


Neither option would keep fans beyond a year anyway.

It's the cruel side of business. That Nutting is cheap isn't helping things.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:15 pm 
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I just saw that the Giants are still looking for a center fielder and that Cutch will play right. And the future of OFer Austin Slater with the team is "muddy." Translation: he could have been had as part of the return. But no, we had to settle for a 23-year old in AA. I guess the chances of Reynolds cashing in through arbitration in 3 years was less, so they took him.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:07 pm 
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I don't have a problem with trading Cole or Cutch. I do have very little faith in the front office talent evaluation. I think we have seen that NH has missed much more than he has hit. Drafts have been weak especially when the Pirates were selecting in the top 10. We will see if these players pan out so I am not overreacting at this point. It's a wait and see for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:30 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
I don't have a problem with trading Cole or Cutch. I do have very little faith in the front office talent evaluation. I think we have seen that NH has missed much more than he has hit. Drafts have been weak especially when the Pirates were selecting in the top 10. We will see if these players pan out so I am not overreacting at this point. It's a wait and see for me.


Neal Huntington's Drafts

2008 - Alvarez - All-Star
2009 - Tony Sanchez - Miss
2009 - Victor Black - Very good RP, used to get Marlon Byrd
2010 - Jameson Taillon - TBD
2011 - Gerrit Cole - All-Star
2012 - Mark Appel - NA, didn't sign
2012 - Barrett Barnes - TBD
2013 - Austin Meadows - TBD
2013 - Reese McGuire - Miss
2014 - Cole Tucker - TBD
2014 - Connor Joe - TBD
2015 - Kevin Newman - TBD
2015 - Ke'Bryan Hayes - TBD
2016 - Wil Craig - TBD
2016 - Nick Lodolo - TBD
2017 - Shane Baz - TBD


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:41 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
I just saw that the Giants are still looking for a center fielder and that Cutch will play right. And the future of OFer Austin Slater with the team is "muddy." Translation: he could have been had as part of the return. But no, we had to settle for a 23-year old in AA. I guess the chances of Reynolds cashing in through arbitration in 3 years was less, so they took him.


FWIW, Slater doesn't appear to be very good (on paper).

Also, he has an 80's teen dramedy bad guy name. So NO THANK YOU.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:21 am 
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rellimie wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
I don't have a problem with trading Cole or Cutch. I do have very little faith in the front office talent evaluation. I think we have seen that NH has missed much more than he has hit. Drafts have been weak especially when the Pirates were selecting in the top 10. We will see if these players pan out so I am not overreacting at this point. It's a wait and see for me.


Neal Huntington's Drafts

2008 - Alvarez - All-Star
2009 - Tony Sanchez - Miss
2009 - Victor Black - Very good RP, used to get Marlon Byrd
2010 - Jameson Taillon - TBD
2011 - Gerrit Cole - All-Star
2012 - Mark Appel - NA, didn't sign
2012 - Barrett Barnes - TBD
2013 - Austin Meadows - TBD
2013 - Reese McGuire - Miss
2014 - Cole Tucker - TBD
2014 - Connor Joe - TBD
2015 - Kevin Newman - TBD
2015 - Ke'Bryan Hayes - TBD
2016 - Wil Craig - TBD
2016 - Nick Lodolo - TBD
2017 - Shane Baz - TBD


Just because a No. 2 pick and No. 1 pick overall made the all-star team once each doesn't qualify it being a worthy pick. In fact, it probably proves my point. Lots of TBDs there so if you want to consider it incomplete, so be it. I think this organization has failed considering the opportunities.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:57 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
rellimie wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
I don't have a problem with trading Cole or Cutch. I do have very little faith in the front office talent evaluation. I think we have seen that NH has missed much more than he has hit. Drafts have been weak especially when the Pirates were selecting in the top 10. We will see if these players pan out so I am not overreacting at this point. It's a wait and see for me.


Neal Huntington's Drafts

2008 - Alvarez - All-Star
2009 - Tony Sanchez - Miss
2009 - Victor Black - Very good RP, used to get Marlon Byrd
2010 - Jameson Taillon - TBD
2011 - Gerrit Cole - All-Star
2012 - Mark Appel - NA, didn't sign
2012 - Barrett Barnes - TBD
2013 - Austin Meadows - TBD
2013 - Reese McGuire - Miss
2014 - Cole Tucker - TBD
2014 - Connor Joe - TBD
2015 - Kevin Newman - TBD
2015 - Ke'Bryan Hayes - TBD
2016 - Wil Craig - TBD
2016 - Nick Lodolo - TBD
2017 - Shane Baz - TBD


Just because a No. 2 pick and No. 1 pick overall made the all-star team once each doesn't qualify it being a worthy pick. In fact, it probably proves my point. Lots of TBDs there so if you want to consider it incomplete, so be it. I think this organization has failed considering the opportunities.


And when every team in MLB recognized a guy like Alvarez as the best talent in the draft, and he falters after a few really good years in the majors, it does not make the pick a bad pick.

Sometimes the right pick doesn't always work out.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:02 am 
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It might have been the right pick at the time, but it doesn't mean it was the right pick either. I get that's hindsight, but these guys are paid to recognize what these players will become. A great example is Taillon. Could end up being pretty good, but imagine if the Pirates took Sale. He would have been here during the playoff run. So you either chalk it up to luck or skill

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:18 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
It might have been the right pick at the time, but it doesn't mean it was the right pick either. I get that's hindsight, but these guys are paid to recognize what these players will become. A great example is Taillon. Could end up being pretty good, but imagine if the Pirates took Sale. He would have been here during the playoff run. So you either chalk it up to luck or skill


It’s always a mix. Alvarez is a prime example of bad luck though. EVERY scout in baseball thought he was a can’t miss, polished hitter with power. He was for a few years, then he faded. Hard to blame Huntington for that. How are scouts supposed to predict a guy will become a head case and lose it 2 years after leading the NL in homeruns.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:16 am 
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rellimie wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
It might have been the right pick at the time, but it doesn't mean it was the right pick either. I get that's hindsight, but these guys are paid to recognize what these players will become. A great example is Taillon. Could end up being pretty good, but imagine if the Pirates took Sale. He would have been here during the playoff run. So you either chalk it up to luck or skill


It’s always a mix. Alvarez is a prime example of bad luck though. EVERY scout in baseball thought he was a can’t miss, polished hitter with power. He was for a few years, then he faded. Hard to blame Huntington for that. How are scouts supposed to predict a guy will become a head case and lose it 2 years after leading the NL in homeruns.


That's their job. Nobody said it was easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:54 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
rellimie wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
It might have been the right pick at the time, but it doesn't mean it was the right pick either. I get that's hindsight, but these guys are paid to recognize what these players will become. A great example is Taillon. Could end up being pretty good, but imagine if the Pirates took Sale. He would have been here during the playoff run. So you either chalk it up to luck or skill


It’s always a mix. Alvarez is a prime example of bad luck though. EVERY scout in baseball thought he was a can’t miss, polished hitter with power. He was for a few years, then he faded. Hard to blame Huntington for that. How are scouts supposed to predict a guy will become a head case and lose it 2 years after leading the NL in homeruns.


That's their job. Nobody said it was easy.


I know. I’m just saying that there are guys that are misses, ones who just never make the majors and never develope. Their are guys who make it, then develope physical issues due to injury or in Alvarez’s case, mental issues.

I don’t consider Alvarez a miss. If I did, then I’d have to consider Cole a miss.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:55 am 
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val wrote:
I'm out.


I'm teetering on the edge. I can't give up a lifetime of fandom so what I'm doing is making sure not a single penny of mine makes it into Nutting's hands. What this means from me...

- No more trips to Pittsburgh for games
- I won't buy the MLB package this season. I'll illegally stream games if I want to watch.
- I won't buy any Pirates apparel. If I get the urge to purchase something it'll be a Montreal Expos hat.

I've got too much emotional investment to give up. I will stop giving money though.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:25 am 
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IA Pirate wrote:
val wrote:
I'm out.


I'm teetering on the edge. I can't give up a lifetime of fandom so what I'm doing is making sure not a single penny of mine makes it into Nutting's hands. What this means from me...

- No more trips to Pittsburgh for games
- I won't buy the MLB package this season. I'll illegally stream games if I want to watch.
- I won't buy any Pirates apparel. If I get the urge to purchase something it'll be a Montreal Expos hat.

I've got too much emotional investment to give up. I will stop giving money though.


Knockoff Pirates gear from China is the way to go


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:34 am 
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Neal Huntington's Drafts - Who he could have had

2008 - Alvarez - All-Star (2nd pick) - Buster Posey (5th Pick)
2009 - Tony Sanchez -(5nd pick) - Mike Trout (25th Pick)
2009 - Victor Black - (50th pick) - Billy Hamilton (57th Pick)
2010 - Jameson Taillon - (2nd pick) - Chris Sale (13th Pick) Christian Yelich (23rd Pick)
2011 - Gerrit Cole - (1st pick) - Cole best player in that draft. Fransisco Lindor 7 picks behind
2012 - Mark Appel - (8th pick) -Addison Russell (11th Pick) Cory Seager (18th Pick)
2012 - Barrett Barnes - (45th pick) - Alex Wood (85th Pick)
2013 - Austin Meadows -(9th pick) -
2013 - Reese McGuire - (14th pick) -Tim Anderson (17th Pick) Aaron Judge (32nd Pick)
2014 - Cole Tucker - (24th Pick)
2014 - Connor Joe - (39th)
2015 - Kevin Newman -(19th Pick)
2015 - Ke'Bryan Hayes - (32nd Pick)
2016 - Wil Craig - (22nd Pick)
2016 - Nick Lodolo - (41st Pick)
2017 - Shane Baz - (12th Pick)

*** This is not a statement or a criticism. I could do this with all 32 teams

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:47 am 
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The Rotten One wrote:
Neal Huntington's Drafts - Who he could have had

2008 - Alvarez - All-Star (2nd pick) - Buster Posey (5th Pick)
2009 - Tony Sanchez -(5th pick) - Mike Trout (25th Pick)
2009 - Victor Black - (50th pick) - Billy Hamilton (57th Pick)
2010 - Jameson Taillon - (2nd pick) - Chris Sale (13th Pick) Christian Yelich (23rd Pick)
2011 - Gerrit Cole - (1st pick) - Cole best player in that draft. Fransisco Lindor 7 picks behind
2012 - Mark Appel - (8th pick) -Addison Russell (11th Pick) Cory Seager (18th Pick)
2012 - Barrett Barnes - (45th pick) - Alex Wood (85th Pick)
2013 - Austin Meadows -(9th pick) -
2013 - Reese McGuire - (14th pick) -Tim Anderson (17th Pick) Aaron Judge (32nd Pick)
2014 - Cole Tucker - (24th Pick)
2014 - Connor Joe - (39th)
2015 - Kevin Newman -(19th Pick)
2015 - Ke'Bryan Hayes - (32nd Pick)
2016 - Wil Craig - (22nd Pick)
2016 - Nick Lodolo - (41st Pick)
2017 - Shane Baz - (12th Pick)

*** This is not a statement or a criticism. I could do this with all 32 teams


I think some of the pick selection mentality has a lot to do with stocking depth at the minor league level for future development. I think the bigger question is not about who is selected, rather who is developing these players. Case and point is that Tony Sanchez was a cant miss prospect when he was picked 5th overall. But I can remember the last good catcher the Pirates developed. Who is to say that Buster Posey wouldnt just be another guy in the Pirate organization?

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:42 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Ryann wrote:
They are not in rebuild mode? :lol:

How is this not a full rebuild? They traded their two best players for next to nothing in return. Purely to save money. If they wanted to tread water to see how competitive they would be they would have waited to make these moves in July. The fans should be outraged, not trying to justify another salary dump.


Bell, Marte, Polanco and Taillon are still on the team. Meadows will be up soon.

If the Pirates were in "full rebuild" mode, they would have traded Cole and Cutch for more long-term prospects. They're splitting the difference. They're trying to extend the last of their corps and develop at the same time.

I'm not saying I like it, or that it's smart, but it's pretty clear what their vision is.


I think it is pretty clear what the vision is...to save money. That's what these moves were about, that is clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:28 pm 
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The Rotten One wrote:
The Rotten One wrote:
Neal Huntington's Drafts - Who he could have had

2008 - Alvarez - All-Star (2nd pick) - Buster Posey (5th Pick)
2009 - Tony Sanchez -(5th pick) - Mike Trout (25th Pick)
2009 - Victor Black - (50th pick) - Billy Hamilton (57th Pick)
2010 - Jameson Taillon - (2nd pick) - Chris Sale (13th Pick) Christian Yelich (23rd Pick)
2011 - Gerrit Cole - (1st pick) - Cole best player in that draft. Fransisco Lindor 7 picks behind
2012 - Mark Appel - (8th pick) -Addison Russell (11th Pick) Cory Seager (18th Pick)
2012 - Barrett Barnes - (45th pick) - Alex Wood (85th Pick)
2013 - Austin Meadows -(9th pick) -
2013 - Reese McGuire - (14th pick) -Tim Anderson (17th Pick) Aaron Judge (32nd Pick)
2014 - Cole Tucker - (24th Pick)
2014 - Connor Joe - (39th)
2015 - Kevin Newman -(19th Pick)
2015 - Ke'Bryan Hayes - (32nd Pick)
2016 - Wil Craig - (22nd Pick)
2016 - Nick Lodolo - (41st Pick)
2017 - Shane Baz - (12th Pick)

*** This is not a statement or a criticism. I could do this with all 32 teams


I think some of the pick selection mentality has a lot to do with stocking depth at the minor league level for future development. I think the bigger question is not about who is selected, rather who is developing these players. Case and point is that Tony Sanchez was a cant miss prospect when he was picked 5th overall. But I can remember the last good catcher the Pirates developed. Who is to say that Buster Posey wouldnt just be another guy in the Pirate organization?


Development. Exactly.

First, a team run like the Pirates doesn’t have the luxury of missing on a lot of picks. They have to set the bar high. Unfortunately they do not have much to show for their efforts, despite rellie making an attempt.

I’ve said for a while now that I think we have a problem with our development of talent. It seems clear the Pirates have a plan(slower movement through system for example) that differs from many other teams. Their way of doing things seems to be failing. The guys that do get to the major leagues always seem to be lacking in basic fundamental skills.

Without seeing this stuff first hand, I’m just speculating. But it seems to be the case from my viewpoint. So they haven’t drafted very well, or certainly as well as they have to, but they also seem to be lacking in player development.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:35 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
I’d have rather had one more year of Cutch than getting a project outfielder and our 815th relief pitcher...


:roll:

If you’d remove your lips from NH’s ass for a minute...

If this was going to be the return, then I would’ve preferred keeping Cutch. Trade him at the deadline if need be. The return wouldn’t have been much different. We have all of these supposed hard throwing youngsters in our system, some of which debuted last year in Pittsburgh, yet we keep bringing in more hard throwing(and wild) relief pitchers. We could field an entire 25 man roster with relief pitchers.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutch trades to the Giants pending physical
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:39 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
rellimie wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
I’d have rather had one more year of Cutch than getting a project outfielder and our 815th relief pitcher...


:roll:

If you’d remove your lips from NH’s ass for a minute...

If this was going to be the return, then I would’ve preferred keeping Cutch. Trade him at the deadline if need be. The return wouldn’t have been much different. We have all of these supposed hard throwing youngsters in our system, some of which debuted last year in Pittsburgh, yet we keep bringing in more hard throwing(and wild) relief pitchers. We could field an entire 25 man roster with relief pitchers.


Now that we've seen the return, I agree. What would have been the worse case scenario? McCutchen not play well and we literally get nothing for him? Getting nothing for him isn't much of a downgrade from the "something" we got for him now. At least if McCutchen was replicating last years performance, the "something" we'd have got for him in July would be better than what we got now... or at the very least, similar.


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