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 Post subject: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirrors
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:37 pm 
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There was a rumor they were in on Othani, (spelling), only to find out they never were in. Then some about Cutch and JHay. Now the Cole to Yanks rumor. Is it just me, or have I become cynical about the Bucs FO? Are the rumors plants just to try to keep the fans interested so there would be the feeling that the FO is really trying to do something, anything? It seems every year the rumors come about but they never happen. The only thing that really happens is the bottom feeding for cheap projects and the walking the plank of the players who make too much money for the owner. I am guessing the answer is same old FO, different year. I can't help but wonder. The good teams are getting even better by adding the very good players. The Bucs got a couple rule 5 picks. It's frustrating that his happens every year and there is no change in sight. This is all just my opinion only.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:43 pm 
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I think that rumors start because reporters try to so hard to be the first person to report info; therefore, a lot fake news gets reported. Also, there is no consequence for reporting false trade rumors.

For example: “The Pirates have significant interest in Mike Trout and have already discussed trade possibilities with the Angels. The Angels are are looking to get Meadows and Glasnow in return.”

If I were to tweet this, nobody would know if it’s true or not. Of course, when that trade doesn’t happen, I wouldn’t look bad because I just said that the Pirates had interest, I never said that the trade was happening.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:08 am 
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mbark757 wrote:
There was a rumor they were in on Othani, (spelling), only to find out they never were in. Then some about Cutch and JHay. Now the Cole to Yanks rumor. Is it just me, or have I become cynical about the Bucs FO? Are the rumors plants just to try to keep the fans interested so there would be the feeling that the FO is really trying to do something, anything? It seems every year the rumors come about but they never happen. The only thing that really happens is the bottom feeding for cheap projects and the walking the plank of the players who make too much money for the owner. I am guessing the answer is same old FO, different year. I can't help but wonder. The good teams are getting even better by adding the very good players. The Bucs got a couple rule 5 picks. It's frustrating that his happens every year and there is no change in sight. This is all just my opinion only.


If anyone thinks the Pirates are suddenly go to double their payroll they are crazy. Unless Pittsburgh doubles in market size or something significant changes with how MLB handles payrolls the Pirates are a 100 to 115 million dollar team and that is what they will always be. People just need to come to terms with that.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:08 pm 
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How would trading Cole add money to the payroll? I don't expect the Bucs to spend like they are the Yankees. My problem is they don't spend anything at all. Even the other small market teams at least try to get what they need to compete. I am so tired of hearing small market team, they make money on TV rights from different venues, millions at that. They make money from advertisers and many other ways. The money from attendance is nothing compared to what they make from other sources. Yes the larger markets make much more but you can't tell me that they can't afford to make an effort. They can't afford the Stanton's or Kershaw's of the league but they sure can afford at least one of the middle level. They only want to scrape the bottom of the barrel. I am NOT saying they can spend like the others but they can spend enough to at least compete.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:57 pm 
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They signed a pretty bad TV deal right before they got huge so that doesn't help.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:08 pm 
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mbark757 wrote:
How would trading Cole add money to the payroll? I don't expect the Bucs to spend like they are the Yankees. My problem is they don't spend anything at all. Even the other small market teams at least try to get what they need to compete. I am so tired of hearing small market team, they make money on TV rights from different venues, millions at that. They make money from advertisers and many other ways. The money from attendance is nothing compared to what they make from other sources. Yes the larger markets make much more but you can't tell me that they can't afford to make an effort. They can't afford the Stanton's or Kershaw's of the league but they sure can afford at least one of the middle level. They only want to scrape the bottom of the barrel. I am NOT saying they can spend like the others but they can spend enough to at least compete.


The payroll has essentially gone up every year. The Pirates consistently rank around 23rd in the league in payroll meaning that their are teams that spend less. The bottom line is the Pirates don't bring in the revenue that other teams bring in. Their TV contract is shit due to the timing of when those started to balloon. It was on par with the market when it was signed but not now. They have some of the lowest ticket prices/revenue in the league, they make less than half on concessions and make $0 on parking. In addition to that, I read somewhere that the Stadium Authority rapes them on the stadium lease.

I'm not saying Nutting is completely without blame but the revenue issues are real. If you look at what it costs to attend games and the cost of living in other cities you'll start to see it.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:52 pm 
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"Hey, NS! I heard you and Anna Kendrick were a thing? That you were making serious moves on her!"

That's a fair rumor. If I ever met the lovely Ms. Kendrick, I'd likely walk up to her and ask her out. And she would blow me the fuck off. (Or, best case scenario, we'd go on a date and it'd go nowhere.)

The point is, are the rumors 'smoke and mirrors'? No. There is a grain of truth in them. That's precisely what makes them RUMORS. The truth is that the Bucs are TRYING to make moves, and getting rejected and nearly every opportunity. They 'make a play for Ohtani' in that they put in their bid and are instantly turned down. They're 'in on Machado' in that they ask Baltimore only to be laughed at and hung up on.

Queue the Fleetwood Mac, because most of the Pirates "Rumours" are "Second Hand News".

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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:52 am 
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@ NS....
Dont be so hard on yourself. I think Anna after reading several of your well thought out posts, along with the allure of being with a Pirates fan would find you quite intriguing. The sad August Pirate fan puppy dog look in your eyes would win her over, making her yours for eternity. Or until some sexual harassment claim against Bob Nutting turned her against the Pirates requiring her to kick you to the curb immediately. But in this instance, one and done would be considered a major victory. I say go for it.

@Rellime
23rd in the league will get you players that have the ability to win a world championship. No doubt.
But what also comes with that level of payroll is the risk that comes with lack of depth. Because you cant have a lot of quality depth with that level of payroll. So if your star Asian 3rd baseman isn't available, or your star center fielder is struggling, or your Left fielder is suspended, your season is kind of in the toilet. In order to win with the 23rd payroll in the league, you really have to get a lot lucky. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with that. In this market it is what it is. With this business model NH needs to put his team in the best position he can in order to hopefully get lucky. Much like NS needs to do with Anna.

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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:16 pm 
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The Rotten One wrote:
@ NS....
Dont be so hard on yourself. I think Anna after reading several of your well thought out posts, along with the allure of being with a Pirates fan would find you quite intriguing. The sad August Pirate fan puppy dog look in your eyes would win her over, making her yours for eternity. Or until some sexual harassment claim against Bob Nutting turned her against the Pirates requiring her to kick you to the curb immediately. But in this instance, one and done would be considered a major victory. I say go for it.

@Rellime
23rd in the league will get you players that have the ability to win a world championship. No doubt.
But what also comes with that level of payroll is the risk that comes with lack of depth. Because you cant have a lot of quality depth with that level of payroll. So if your star Asian 3rd baseman isn't available, or your star center fielder is struggling, or your Left fielder is suspended, your season is kind of in the toilet. In order to win with the 23rd payroll in the league, you really have to get a lot lucky. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with that. In this market it is what it is. With this business model NH needs to put his team in the best position he can in order to hopefully get lucky. Much like NS needs to do with Anna.


I agree with most of this. I give the impression that Nutting and Huntington are blameless....they are not. I am simply being realistic. If team revenue is in the bottom 1/3rd of the league, which it is, then so is the payroll. As someone who has run a business before it's perfectly understandable.

I think what blows my mind is the complete lack of blame that fans apply to the players. Yes, people on this board get it as I think most of us here have a better understanding of baseball than the average fan. Here is what I am referring to:

2016 - If Andrew McCutchen, Garett Cole, and Francisco Liriano all play at THEIR average level (and not the dogshit they played that year) then the Pirates making no other moves are in the playoffs. If those 3 guys had played well enough to be in real contention, then I believe the FO would have made some moves to improve the team. Regardless of the games back, I don't think anyone who knows the game felt that the team had a chance because of how inconsistent those 3 were.

2017 - Again, Cutch; while ending with okay numbers...didn't start his season until June which put us in a deep hole that we almost climbed out of. Had we had someone at the top of the order (I'm looking at you Cole) that stepped up we could have been in a position to do something. Add to that the starting 3B and LF getting suspended, it just wasn't going to happen.

2018 - Here we are again.
- Is Cutch going to hit and April and May? Who knows.
- Is Cole going to be a top of the rotation starter and come through in big games? Probably not.
- Is Kang coming back? 99% No.
- Is the 1 or 2 acquisitions that this team can afford going to make up for the core of this team underperforming? No.

This is a major chicken and the egg scenario. Does the front office dump their limited resources into a team when the star players (Cutch, Cole, Marte, etc...) have not done their part over the past 2 seasons to show that they re 1 or 2 players away? If you base the needs on the performance of the last 2 years then you need new starters in the following positions"

C, 3B, LF, RF, SP, SP, SP

In what offseason is a small market team going to fill 7 starting positions?

This is why I have been a proponent of trading Cutch, Cole and Harrison now. Their value is all high and it's time to go young. 2019 could be a competitive year if they are willing to do a quick rebuild in 18....which is really what they should have done last year.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:19 pm 
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When I started this post I mentioned that the rumors we are hearing is due to the FO planting misleading information. I know sportswriters can make up or rearrange information at their will to bring rumors to broadcast. That's what rumors are, they come from past dealings and guessing on the future. I also know teams will plant information to raise the value of their players. That aside, I did make comment on the low payroll that Nutting likes to put out there and got my anus slapped by those who say the Bucs really don't have the money. I know they can't compete with 90% of the league in getting FA players. They can't afford the high salaries that are out there. What I am saying is they have to be able to afford one middle level player who will help them. I don't see them competing this coming year. If they can get upper level prospects for Cole and possibly useable prospects for Cutch and Harrison then that's what they should do. If they can fill the team with young players that are lower paid and longer control time then maybe they can compete in 19 or 20 then for a few years after that. I understand those who ream me for blaming Nutting. I have no problem with that. But as of now, what is the direction of this club?


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:16 pm 
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mbark757 wrote:
But as of now, what is the direction of this club?


To piggy-back what TRO and rellimie are saying, the direction seems to be 'this is our corps, tweak to try and contend as long as possible'. The problem is that this squad needs things to break in their favor to have a true shot at contention.

The Bucs have had 'bad luck' every year; Kang's injury in 2016, Kang's legal troubles and Marte's suspension last year, Cutch's slump. It seems like EVERY year there was an injury or incident which cost this team a legit shot to make a run. Granted, every team has similar problems, but it's still frustrating for a team with such a thin margin of error.

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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:45 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
mbark757 wrote:
But as of now, what is the direction of this club?


To piggy-back what TRO and rellimie are saying, the direction seems to be 'this is our corps, tweak to try and contend as long as possible'. The problem is that this squad needs things to break in their favor to have a true shot at contention.

The Bucs have had 'bad luck' every year; Kang's injury in 2016, Kang's legal troubles and Marte's suspension last year, Cutch's slump. It seems like EVERY year there was an injury or incident which cost this team a legit shot to make a run. Granted, every team has similar problems, but it's still frustrating for a team with such a thin margin of error.


Cutch’s slumps....fixed it for you


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:45 am 
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rellimie wrote:
I agree with most of this. I give the impression that Nutting and Huntington are blameless....they are not. I am simply being realistic. If team revenue is in the bottom 1/3rd of the league, which it is, then so is the payroll. As someone who has run a business before it's perfectly understandable.

I think what blows my mind is the complete lack of blame that fans apply to the players. Yes, people on this board get it as I think most of us here have a better understanding of baseball than the average fan. Here is what I am referring to:

2016 - If Andrew McCutchen, Garett Cole, and Francisco Liriano all play at THEIR average level (and not the dogshit they played that year) then the Pirates making no other moves are in the playoffs. If those 3 guys had played well enough to be in real contention, then I believe the FO would have made some moves to improve the team. Regardless of the games back, I don't think anyone who knows the game felt that the team had a chance because of how inconsistent those 3 were.

2017 - Again, Cutch; while ending with okay numbers...didn't start his season until June which put us in a deep hole that we almost climbed out of. Had we had someone at the top of the order (I'm looking at you Cole) that stepped up we could have been in a position to do something. Add to that the starting 3B and LF getting suspended, it just wasn't going to happen.

2018 - Here we are again.
- Is Cutch going to hit and April and May? Who knows.
- Is Cole going to be a top of the rotation starter and come through in big games? Probably not.
- Is Kang coming back? 99% No.
- Is the 1 or 2 acquisitions that this team can afford going to make up for the core of this team underperforming? No.

This is a major chicken and the egg scenario. Does the front office dump their limited resources into a team when the star players (Cutch, Cole, Marte, etc...) have not done their part over the past 2 seasons to show that they re 1 or 2 players away? If you base the needs on the performance of the last 2 years then you need new starters in the following positions"

C, 3B, LF, RF, SP, SP, SP

In what offseason is a small market team going to fill 7 starting positions?

This is why I have been a proponent of trading Cutch, Cole and Harrison now. Their value is all high and it's time to go young. 2019 could be a competitive year if they are willing to do a quick rebuild in 18....which is really what they should have done last year.


Of course poor performance from players is a factor. But it’s a factor for every team from time to time. So that brings us back to owner/management...

Most, if not all, owners in sports have made so much money in their other endeavors that they are willing to sacrifice SOME income from the team to give them a better chance to win. Nutting, however, runs his team like this is his primary source of income. Making money will always trump winning with him. And so we are clear, I’m not suggesting owners all don’t want to make money. I’m saying most are willing to trade some profit occasionally for a winning team. Nutting has shown no sign of this. Oh...and then not showing up at Piratefest was a real shrewd move.

As for NH, I gave him the benefit of the doubt because I thought he was being hamstrung by his owner. I still think that, but I no longer have any faith that he knows what he is doing. Never a bold move during the three year window of playoffs. So many almost trades, i.e. David Price. Not that they didn’t make some smart low level acquisitions, but never that Justin Verlander take you over the top type of trade. Then the bridge year that NH supporters blame on poor performances by guys like Cole and Cutch(which I acknowledge), but they forget to mention we started the year with Larry, Moe, and Curly in the starting rotation. In addition we make salary dump trades and now openly state that as the new year approaches they still aren’t sure what direction they want to take the team. The more they talk the dumber they sound.

I agree with whoever said JHay may be the only guy traded. This would be the easy way out. If they would happen to contend(slim chance) they can say “we told the fans we would give this core one more shot”. If the team tanks they can say “this is what the fan base wanted. We knew it was risky.”

Lastly, NH and crew has done a below average job of drafting. A team with limited funds has to do a far better job of drafting. The two “sure things” we once had(Glasnow and Meadows) no longer appear to be in that category. While many other teams seem to have a stockpile of these types. I know the draft is a crap shoot, but a team like the Pirates has to do better.


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 Post subject: Re: I wonder sometimes if the Bucs rumors are smoke & mirror
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:45 am 
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Quote:
I'm not saying Nutting is completely without blame but the revenue issues are real. If you look at what it costs to attend games and the cost of living in other cities you'll start to see it.


Thats a delicate balance isnt it? In St Louis ticket prices are much higher. And the Cardinals get the parking revenue. As a market size we are constantly compared to St Louis. Same could be said about Milwaukee. Except their revs are less than the Pirates, yet they annually out spend them. That delicate balance gets tipped when your ticket prices are low AND people do not attend your games due to apathy. The difference between St Louis and Milwaukee when compared with the Pirates is that ownership in those cities expect those teams to win and are in correction mode when they dont. The Pirate ownership is more in the "Oh well. Better luck next year", response.



Quote:
Again, Cutch; while ending with okay numbers...didn't start his season until June which put us in a deep hole that we almost climbed out of.


Does it help or hinder when the management team publicly tries to trade you, along with yanking you out of center field after playing you there all spring? Sometimes the BMTIB cant get out of its own way.


Quote:
In addition we make salary dump trades and now openly state that as the new year approaches they still aren’t sure what direction they want to take the team. The more they talk the dumber they sound.


One of the quotes DK reported was a sound bite where Nuttington had said that one of the things that factors into the direction of this team is how the other division rosters play out. Yikes! They do say some dumb things.

Quote:
2016


Bridge year if I remember correctly

Quote:
I agree with most of this. I give the impression that Nutting and Huntington are blameless....they are not. I am simply being realistic. If team revenue is in the bottom 1/3rd of the league, which it is, then so is the payroll. As someone who has run a business before it's perfectly understandable.


Lastly, Rellime,
The Pirates have made it quite clear that they will not be increasing the payroll by much. It will remain around 106 Million. With that said, does that mean that the 50 million dollar one time payment that every MLB team is going to get this spring will simply go to line the pockets of the owner? That money represents an opportunity to add to the club. But they have made it quite clear thats not going to happen. So with that said, am I to beleive that even if the revenues were much higher. If the next TV contract was a really good one. If the City gave the Pirates the parking revs, and gave them a better stadium lease. That the ownership would use that money to compete. I say no way.

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