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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:23 pm 
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JollyRoger wrote:
To suggest that Walker hasn't deteriorated as a defender is lunacy.


Nobody did.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:24 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Why hate a FO for moving on from a guy who can't, and won't ever again, play close to a full season?

ZM


Don’t hate the FO just pointing out that they should have kept him in 2016.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:37 am 
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abitoutside wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Why hate a FO for moving on from a guy who can't, and won't ever again, play close to a full season?

ZM


Don’t hate the FO just pointing out that they should have kept him in 2016.


Meh, he had a monster first month then very average and ended the season on the DL. We got a few good years out of him and moved on. If the Pirates kept him in 2016 and he ended the season on the DL like he did on the Mets then they would have got nothing. They took a change on a pitcher with controllable years.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:07 am 
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rellimie wrote:
abitoutside wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Why hate a FO for moving on from a guy who can't, and won't ever again, play close to a full season?

ZM


Don’t hate the FO just pointing out that they should have kept him in 2016.


Meh, he had a monster first month then very average and ended the season on the DL. We got a few good years out of him and moved on. If the Pirates kept him in 2016 and he ended the season on the DL like he did on the Mets then they would have got nothing. They took a change on a pitcher with controllable years.


In other words, their typical MO. This one didn't work out.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:32 am 
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rellimie wrote:
abitoutside wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Why hate a FO for moving on from a guy who can't, and won't ever again, play close to a full season?

ZM


Don’t hate the FO just pointing out that they should have kept him in 2016.


Meh, he had a monster first month then very average and ended the season on the DL. We got a few good years out of him and moved on. If the Pirates kept him in 2016 and he ended the season on the DL like he did on the Mets then they would have got nothing. They took a change on a pitcher with controllable years.


Still substantially better than what the Pirates had at 2B. And they got worse than nothing in Niese. Amazing to me how folks can still justify this trade. But whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:11 pm 
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My brain may still be soaked in holiday beer, so check my memory, but nobody should have been surprised when the Pirates traded Walker in winter of 2015. As soon as they gave Harrison a 4 year extension earlier that year, Walker should have seen the writing on the wall. No way were they going to let Walker stumble around for 10 Million while paying Harrison 6.8 mil at the same time. And nobody would have a problem choosing between the two guys. No Brainer.

And knowing now that Harrisons 2017 - 6.8 mil has blossomed into a fruitful 2018 -10.5 mil. Nobody, including Harrison should be surprised that the Pirates stuck a "for sale" sign in Harrisons front yard.

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:47 pm 
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The Rotten One wrote:
My brain may still be soaked in holiday beer, so check my memory, but nobody should have been surprised when the Pirates traded Walker in winter of 2015. As soon as they gave Harrison a 4 year extension earlier that year, Walker should have seen the writing on the wall. No way were they going to let Walker stumble around for 10 Million while paying Harrison 6.8 mil at the same time. And nobody would have a problem choosing between the two guys. No Brainer.

And knowing now that Harrisons 2017 - 6.8 mil has blossomed into a fruitful 2018 -10.5 mil. Nobody, including Harrison should be surprised that the Pirates stuck a "for sale" sign in Harrisons front yard.


I was not surprised. Nothing they do surprises me anymore.

FWIW - Walker stumbled into 3.7 WAR to Harrison’s bumbling 1.4 in 2016.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Okay, to bring the thread back to its original title, there are rumblings this morning about the Cubs being interested in Cole. Now. to me, to trade Cole to the Cubs would be more of a signal of giving up on 2018 than trading him to the Yankees. But if they would give us Happ or Russell or somebody like that straight up, I say do it.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:56 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
Okay, to bring the thread back to its original title, there are rumblings this morning about the Cubs being interested in Cole. Now. to me, to trade Cole to the Cubs would be more of a signal of giving up on 2018 than trading him to the Yankees. But if they would give us Happ or Russell or somebody like that straight up, I say do it.


Russell and Happ and Baez and Schwarber all would be concerning to me straight up. All have used up some service time and none are difference makers IMO. I would rather a prospect package with high upside guys come back for Cole. With the way the Pirates operate, getting guys with less than 5 or 6 years (Happ does, but I am not sold on him) of service time remaining isn’t the best course.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:17 pm 
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I think Russell and Baez have already shown themselves to be difference makers, and they are still young. Happ may be the best hitter of the whole lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:33 pm 
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The Rotten One wrote:
My brain may still be soaked in holiday beer, so check my memory, but nobody should have been surprised when the Pirates traded Walker in winter of 2015. As soon as they gave Harrison a 4 year extension earlier that year, Walker should have seen the writing on the wall. No way were they going to let Walker stumble around for 10 Million while paying Harrison 6.8 mil at the same time. And nobody would have a problem choosing between the two guys. No Brainer.

And knowing now that Harrisons 2017 - 6.8 mil has blossomed into a fruitful 2018 -10.5 mil. Nobody, including Harrison should be surprised that the Pirates stuck a "for sale" sign in Harrisons front yard.


Except that they traded a 10 million dollar guy for a 9.5 million dollar guy......so it wasn't about money.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:58 pm 
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abitoutside wrote:

I was not surprised. Nothing they do surprises me anymore.

FWIW - Walker stumbled into 3.7 WAR to Harrison’s bumbling 1.4 in 2016.


Stumbling being the key word. Remind me again how much time he spent on IR? You know, for context of what the WAR actually means.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Quote:
Except that they traded a 10 million dollar guy for a 9.5 million dollar guy......so it wasn't about money.


Full circle. Its was either money or stupidity. I'll except either.

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:24 am 
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doug frobel wrote:
I think Russell and Baez have already shown themselves to be difference makers, and they are still young. Happ may be the best hitter of the whole lot.


Baez has almost 1200 ML ABs with a .725 OPS. He is an elite defensive 2B no question. With how the Bucs operate yo7 would only have him for 1-2 years.

Russel has over 1300 ABs with a .719 OPS. Same as above he would only be around for 1-2 years.

Happ doesnt have the service time and has an .842 OPS so yes he has shown to be the best hitter of the three. If he can handle 2B then yes he is the best fit. I would rather get multiple guys for Cole though.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:34 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
abitoutside wrote:

I was not surprised. Nothing they do surprises me anymore.

FWIW - Walker stumbled into 3.7 WAR to Harrison’s bumbling 1.4 in 2016.


Stumbling being the key word. Remind me again how much time he spent on IR? You know, for context of what the WAR actually means.

ZM


He had 50 less ABs than Harrison in 2016. He had 20 more HRs and an OPS 100 points higher.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:36 am 
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Walker's 2016 was buoyed by an uncharacteristically good April and an extraordinarily lucky September (I think) where his BABIP was almost .400.

Are some of you just feigning outrage or do you really not get why the Pirates moving Neil Walker made sense from a team building and on field personnel standpoint?


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:49 am 
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abitoutside wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
abitoutside wrote:

I was not surprised. Nothing they do surprises me anymore.

FWIW - Walker stumbled into 3.7 WAR to Harrison’s bumbling 1.4 in 2016.


Stumbling being the key word. Remind me again how much time he spent on IR? You know, for context of what the WAR actually means.

ZM


He had 50 less ABs than Harrison in 2016. He had 20 more HRs and an OPS 100 points higher.


And how many months off the field?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:29 am 
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Quote:
Are some of you just feigning outrage or do you really not get why the Pirates moving Neil Walker made sense from a team building and on field personnel standpoint?


I get it. It was about money. This is a small market team with a small market strategy. That includes making it about money. This team cannot afford to pay big money to guys like Walker. They have to trim the fat. And when you have two guys who play the same position and both are slightly above average players, the more expensive one has to go. And I'm tired of hearing about the self proclaimed mistake that NH made with Jon Niese.

You are likely and currently watching the exact scenario play out with Josh Harrison and Adam Frazier.

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:46 pm 
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The Rotten One wrote:
Quote:
Are some of you just feigning outrage or do you really not get why the Pirates moving Neil Walker made sense from a team building and on field personnel standpoint?


I get it. It was about money. This is a small market team with a small market strategy. That includes making it about money. This team cannot afford to pay big money to guys like Walker. They have to trim the fat. And when you have two guys who play the same position and both are slightly above average players, the more expensive one has to go. And I'm tired of hearing about the self proclaimed mistake that NH made with Jon Niese.

You are likely and currently watching the exact scenario play out with Josh Harrison and Adam Frazier.


Except they replaced Walker with a guy who made the same money. Soooo.......

Regardless. This thread is supposed to be about Cole. Cole can't be gone soon enough IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Rumors
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Quote:
This thread is supposed to be about Cole. Cole can't be gone soon enough IMO.


:lol:

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