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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:03 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Corsair wrote:
He's not a great Xs and Os guy like Sparky Anderson or Jim Leyland. My problem with Clint is absolute blindness to giving young players a chance, even in a lost September like this. Before Harvey blew into town and put baseball way down my list of importnace, I made a vow to my wife. Any time I turn on the game and see John Jaso and Chris Stewart in the lineup together, I just stop watching and delete it from my DVR.

Watching Stewart and his 3 RBI and batting average lower than my weight in my 20s taking playing time from a young guy like Diaz is a slap in the face to any loyal Pirate fan.


See, that's the problem with you out-of-towners who don't really follow the team.

Stewart now has four RBI's.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:35 pm 
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Corsair wrote:
He's not a great Xs and Os guy like Sparky Anderson or Jim Leyland. My problem with Clint is absolute blindness to giving young players a chance, even in a lost September like this. Before Harvey blew into town and put baseball way down my list of importnace, I made a vow to my wife. Any time I turn on the game and see John Jaso and Chris Stewart in the lineup together, I just stop watching and delete it from my DVR.

Watching Stewart and his 3 RBI and batting average lower than my weight in my 20s taking playing time from a young guy like Diaz is a slap in the face to any loyal Pirate fan.


Jim Leyland has publicly disagreed with your assessment.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:35 pm 
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Corsair wrote:
I don't know if its hate so much as rage and disappointment that the last two seasons, NH plain and simply choked and was afraid to do anything. They took a team that won 98 games and got cheap (dumping Morton, trading Walker's salary to the Mets and telling us that 95 year old Ryan Vogelsong was just fine along with Niese and Locke) and then he pays the Blue Jays in two prospects just to get some salary relief and nothing else in return. Hey Nutting, if we are dumping players for salary relief, then the Yinzers are right and you are a penny ante player.

And then this year. Instead of trading all that back logged AAA pitching depth for a real starter, we get a 40 year old washed up piece of shit reliever and two lottery tickets. He froze! Pure and simple

I am beginning to think Neil values his precious prosepcts even more than Littlefield.


This.
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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:20 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Corsair wrote:
He's not a great Xs and Os guy like Sparky Anderson or Jim Leyland. My problem with Clint is absolute blindness to giving young players a chance, even in a lost September like this. Before Harvey blew into town and put baseball way down my list of importnace, I made a vow to my wife. Any time I turn on the game and see John Jaso and Chris Stewart in the lineup together, I just stop watching and delete it from my DVR.

Watching Stewart and his 3 RBI and batting average lower than my weight in my 20s taking playing time from a young guy like Diaz is a slap in the face to any loyal Pirate fan.


Jim Leyland has publicly disagreed with your assessment.

ZM


When? Where? In what context?


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:43 pm 
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This year, he has said the Clint reminds himself of himself, and that he is one of the best game managers in the MLB.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:46 am 
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I get the hate for Stewart. He sucks bad, and should not be on the team next year, so why is he even playing? His WAR value is -.7, worst on the team.

But the hate for Jaso I don't get. He has a .759 OPS and .5 WAR total, just fine for a bench player. I actually like seeing him come to the plate, because I think there's a decent chance he's going to actually hit the ball.


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:46 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
This year, he has said the Clint reminds himself of himself, and that he is one of the best game managers in the MLB.

ZM


Huh. Missed that one.


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:50 am 
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Ralphie wrote:
I get the hate for Stewart. He sucks bad, and should not be on the team next year, so why is he even playing? His WAR value is -.7, worst on the team.

But the hate for Jaso I don't get. He has a .759 OPS and .5 WAR total, just fine for a bench player. I actually like seeing him come to the plate, because I think there's a decent chance he's going to actually hit the ball.


Or at least have a professional at bat. Jaso never gives one away. He's not gifted with a ton of ability, but he competes. Draws a lot of walks. I love to see him coming up late in games. Like last night. The only thing I wanted to see was a pinch runner for him once he walked. I mean, it's the tying run, and you've got guys on the bench, for crying out loud. What does Chris Bostick have to do to get in a game? But actually, Jaso had the only good piece of base running in that inning, as he read the Marte single well off the bat and got his kiester to third.


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:04 am 
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Ralphie wrote:
But the hate for Jaso I don't get. He has a .759 OPS and .5 WAR total, just fine for a bench player. I actually like seeing him come to the plate, because I think there's a decent chance he's going to actually hit the ball.

Fair points. Jaso is a good bench piece. Unfortunately, with "China Doll" Polanco on the team, he has been forced into a starting role - in the OF. Not his fault.


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:17 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
But the hate for Jaso I don't get. He has a .759 OPS and .5 WAR total, just fine for a bench player. I actually like seeing him come to the plate, because I think there's a decent chance he's going to actually hit the ball.

Fair points. Jaso is a good bench piece. Unfortunately, with "China Doll" Polanco on the team, he has been forced into a starting role - in the OF. Not his fault.


How about giving Osuna a chance to get some game time in the outfield?


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Corsair wrote:
TheTimeIsNow wrote:
It really blows my mind that so many people hate Neal Huntington.


I don't know if its hate so much as rage and disappointment that the last two seasons, NH plain and simply choked and was afraid to do anything. They took a team that won 98 games and got cheap (dumping Morton, trading Walker's salary to the Mets and telling us that 95 year old Ryan Vogelsong was just fine along with Niese and Locke) and then he pays the Blue Jays in two prospects just to get some salary relief and nothing else in return. Hey Nutting, if we are dumping players for salary relief, then the Yinzers are right and you are a penny ante player.

And then this year. Instead of trading all that back logged AAA pitching depth for a real starter, we get a 40 year old washed up piece of shit reliever and two lottery tickets. He froze! Pure and simple

I am beginning to think Neil values his precious prosepcts even more than Littlefield.

I am ginving them this off season to see if they can pull of a big trade, which I think is his plan anyway.



Walker wasn't worth the salary anymore and neither was Morton since he was injured so often. Niese bombed, yes, but Locke was what we all knew he was. The reason they didn't go for anyone big is pretty obvious: they had a lot of young pitchers ready to make the jump. The staff basically had 3 rookies in it this year (Taillon, Williams, and Kuhl).

Benoit is really the move that didn't make any sense. I get why people hate it. But you can't let that overshadow the guys he's brought into the staff that have worked out.


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:49 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
Corsair wrote:
TheTimeIsNow wrote:
It really blows my mind that so many people hate Neal Huntington.


I don't know if its hate so much as rage and disappointment that the last two seasons, NH plain and simply choked and was afraid to do anything. They took a team that won 98 games and got cheap (dumping Morton, trading Walker's salary to the Mets and telling us that 95 year old Ryan Vogelsong was just fine along with Niese and Locke) and then he pays the Blue Jays in two prospects just to get some salary relief and nothing else in return. Hey Nutting, if we are dumping players for salary relief, then the Yinzers are right and you are a penny ante player.

And then this year. Instead of trading all that back logged AAA pitching depth for a real starter, we get a 40 year old washed up piece of shit reliever and two lottery tickets. He froze! Pure and simple

I am beginning to think Neil values his precious prosepcts even more than Littlefield.

I am ginving them this off season to see if they can pull of a big trade, which I think is his plan anyway.



Walker wasn't worth the salary anymore and neither was Morton since he was injured so often. Niese bombed, yes, but Locke was what we all knew he was. The reason they didn't go for anyone big is pretty obvious: they had a lot of young pitchers ready to make the jump. The staff basically had 3 rookies in it this year (Taillon, Williams, and Kuhl).

Bt.


And theirin lies the rub. You don't go all in hoping your two stud pitchers work out immediately. (Golly gee we both know that Taillon and Glasnow will be up by July 1 and each win 12 games down the stretch.....guaranteed) When Glasnow fizzled in his debut stint they were in a lot of trouble. I can see getting rid of Walker's salary, and I agree on the misgivings on Morton, but he was a pure salary dump which was the wrong message to send to a fan base.

They got cheap and rolled the dice on two rookie pitchers working out perfectly and that cost them a lot of good will, especially after Nutting's "once we get good and then we will add to the payroll."


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:07 pm 
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Who's this season saving pitcher they should have added?


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Corsair wrote:

And theirin lies the rub. You don't go all in hoping your two stud pitchers work out immediately. (Golly gee we both know that Taillon and Glasnow will be up by July 1 and each win 12 games down the stretch.....guaranteed) When Glasnow fizzled in his debut stint they were in a lot of trouble. I can see getting rid of Walker's salary, and I agree on the misgivings on Morton, but he was a pure salary dump which was the wrong message to send to a fan base.

They got cheap and rolled the dice on two rookie pitchers working out perfectly and that cost them a lot of good will, especially after Nutting's "once we get good and then we will add to the payroll."


There's no rub. You have to let the young guys pitch. I don't think they expected the young guys to come in and dominate. I have to believe Hurdle would not have been retained if the expectations in-house were lower than the media's and fans'.


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Corsair wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
But the hate for Jaso I don't get. He has a .759 OPS and .5 WAR total, just fine for a bench player. I actually like seeing him come to the plate, because I think there's a decent chance he's going to actually hit the ball.

Fair points. Jaso is a good bench piece. Unfortunately, with "China Doll" Polanco on the team, he has been forced into a starting role - in the OF. Not his fault.


How about giving Osuna a chance to get some game time in the outfield?


I'm of the opinion that Osuna is too big and slow to play outfield. I like his bat, but his best chance is to take third if Kang isn't coming back.

Even so, Jaso only has 39 more AB's than Osuna. And that's because he bats left.


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:19 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
Corsair wrote:

And theirin lies the rub. You don't go all in hoping your two stud pitchers work out immediately. (Golly gee we both know that Taillon and Glasnow will be up by July 1 and each win 12 games down the stretch.....guaranteed) When Glasnow fizzled in his debut stint they were in a lot of trouble. I can see getting rid of Walker's salary, and I agree on the misgivings on Morton, but he was a pure salary dump which was the wrong message to send to a fan base.

They got cheap and rolled the dice on two rookie pitchers working out perfectly and that cost them a lot of good will, especially after Nutting's "once we get good and then we will add to the payroll."


There's no rub. You have to let the young guys pitch. I don't think they expected the young guys to come in and dominate. I have to believe Hurdle would not have been retained if the expectations in-house were lower than the media's and fans'.



sorry when you go cheap and hope to pull a rabbit out of a hat with two rookies, instead of signing a decent MLB starter like a Kennedy or Happ as a backup, then you send the message to your fans taht you are cheap. And if signing someone like that causes the management trust to get the vapors then they don't belong at this table and should be back at the penny slots.


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:21 pm 
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JollyRoger wrote:
Who's this season saving pitcher they should have added?



I'm talking about last year, not this. They took a 98 win team and got cheap, plain and simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:01 pm 
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Corsair wrote:
RTJR wrote:
Corsair wrote:

And theirin lies the rub. You don't go all in hoping your two stud pitchers work out immediately. (Golly gee we both know that Taillon and Glasnow will be up by July 1 and each win 12 games down the stretch.....guaranteed) When Glasnow fizzled in his debut stint they were in a lot of trouble. I can see getting rid of Walker's salary, and I agree on the misgivings on Morton, but he was a pure salary dump which was the wrong message to send to a fan base.

They got cheap and rolled the dice on two rookie pitchers working out perfectly and that cost them a lot of good will, especially after Nutting's "once we get good and then we will add to the payroll."


There's no rub. You have to let the young guys pitch. I don't think they expected the young guys to come in and dominate. I have to believe Hurdle would not have been retained if the expectations in-house were lower than the media's and fans'.



sorry when you go cheap and hope to pull a rabbit out of a hat with two rookies, instead of signing a decent MLB starter like a Kennedy or Happ as a backup, then you send the message to your fans taht you are cheap. And if signing someone like that causes the management trust to get the vapors then they don't belong at this table and should be back at the penny slots.


I don't think the team expected the rookies to come in and dominate. The rotation wasn't even the problem this year, so I don't even understand this line of thinking.

The team's weaknesses are the pen and hitting. NH royally f-ep up the pen, but it's not his fault Kang and Marte were suspended nor that Polanco has not performed up to his potential. He should have grabbed Jay Bruce in my opinion, but other than that, short of selling the farm for a bat there's not much he could have done.


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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:21 am 
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Osuna is the centerpiece of an off season trade to bring in an everyday 3B, a Jed Lowrie-type.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:43 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Osuna is the centerpiece of an off season trade to bring in an everyday 3B, a Jed Lowrie-type.

ZM


Actually, if you want Jed Lowrie, you might be able to just sign him- if the A's don't pick up his $6 million option. I think he would be a decent pick up. Either he or Yangervis Solarte would make me happy.


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