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 Post subject: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:19 pm 
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Did anyone check out what Keith Law had to say about McLouth, Ohlendorf, Alvarez, McCutchen, and Moskos over Weiters in his recent chat??? Pretty interesting fodder for Pirate fans. He does not have much love for McLouth. He claims he is "awful defensively".


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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:39 pm 
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This is the link, for anybody interested.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=25753

Law states that McLouth is terrible defensively. When challenged on the topic, he states, "he is terrible, move on with your life."

McLouth is not a great CF'er due to his limited arm strength. He does not have the range of a guy like Andruw Jones in his prime. But he is not "terrible" defensively.


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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:55 pm 
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I wish I still had it but I threw it away yesterday (spring cleaning). In a fantasy baseball magazine, the author of an article did an analysis of fielding with a bunch of different sabermetrics. The conclusion was that McLouth was the top center fielder in the NL last season. It was the first time I have seen someone prove it without using fielding percentage and errors although they were part of the equation.

I think the magazine was Rotowire, but I can't remember.

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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:09 pm 
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I can understand doubting if McLouth can duplicate his overall performance from 2008. However, to say that he is "terrible" sounds mildly personal as if he is trying to rub it in to Pirate fans. Thought that Law could have used a little more tact when challenged on the topic. I know the Pirates are a laughing stock, but to state that a Gold Glover is "awful" and "terrible" is a bit off the wall.


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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:18 pm 
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Over the last two years I've heard alot of praise given to Nate for reading the ball of the bat and running a direct route to where the ball is, making up for a lack of range...

Guys like Morgan can get away making a bad read because they are fast, reading the ball well is an asset...
I always wondered about some of those catches Jones and Edmonds made if some of their highlight reel catches were show boating...

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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Keith Law...YOU are awful...get on with your life. Keith Law is passing judgement on someone he has NEVER seen in person, has rarely seen on TV and certainly has not seen over a long enough period to know if Nate McClouth is a good centerfielder or not.

Law has the same opinion of Nate McClouth as Dave Littlebrain and "Dick" Tracy had of him. That's all I need to know.

I respect the opinions of those on this board (even the ones I don't agree with) ten times more than Law, because our judgements have a base of knowledge and personal experience to back them up.


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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:26 am 
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Keith Law never says anything good to say about the Pirates. I don't think McLouth is going to have near as good of a season as last season but Law is way out of line.


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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:19 am 
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Since when did we care what Keith Law had to say?


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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:20 am 
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to follow up, Joe Sheehan was on Ellis Cannon the other night and said much the same. He was not as harsh, but he used a set of defensive sabremetrics to state that McClouth was below average defensively. Not nearly as harsh as Law, but still his point was they ran a bunch of computer simulatation of all balls hit to all CFers last year, and by plotting where they fell in relation to the positional play and range of the CFer they could figure out the "true" Gold Glove (never stated BTW). He just mentioned that after all was said and done, McClouth cost his team 54 "extra" runs last year. Good at cutting of singles, but his shallow positional play and limited range was taken advantage of for a lot of doubles (thus increasing the other teams OPS, and where all that goes... )

Sheehan said to trade him now at his peak.

Sheehan did not seem at all aware that McClouth will probably ultimately end up in a corner spot.

Sheehan's reason was to get 3 prospects for McClouth in a "Bay" trade to add to the minors to support the Alverez, McCutch and Tabata group for a run in 2012.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:00 am 
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...it cracks me up reading these idiots rip McLouth and say the Pirates should trade him now but if he's so terrible, who the heck is going to give up 2-3 solid prospects for him. Sounds like someone needs to smash that violin of Keith Law and be done with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:10 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Law states that McLouth is terrible defensively. When challenged on the topic, he states, "he is terrible, move on with your life."


And does anyone wonder why he is now working as a writer for ESPN instead of in some team's front office trying to build a winning product? Exhibit A . . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:03 pm 
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Really. Too make that statement is absurd.


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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:55 pm 
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Did anyone else notice that one of the posters in the chat used the moniker "Voice of Reason"? I had a momentary flashback to a previous incarnation of this board. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:16 pm 
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dr.j wrote:
I can understand doubting if McLouth can duplicate his overall performance from 2008. However, to say that he is "terrible" sounds mildly personal as if he is trying to rub it in to Pirate fans. Thought that Law could have used a little more tact when challenged on the topic. I know the Pirates are a laughing stock, but to state that a Gold Glover is "awful" and "terrible" is a bit off the wall.


Yeah, couldn't have said it any better myself, he comes off like a real hack.

Here's just hoping that Nate can make him look like a fool with his play on the field.


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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:29 am 
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It just sounds like Keith Law would like to see Nate in a Yankees or Red Sox uniform...

Though if Moss can produce and McCutchen and Tabata are studs, then trading Nate shouldnt be out of the mix...

but right now Nate, Maholm, and Doumit are pretty untouchable...

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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:21 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
This is the link, for anybody interested.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=25753

Law states that McLouth is terrible defensively. When challenged on the topic, he states, "he is terrible, move on with your life."

McLouth is not a great CF'er due to his limited arm strength. He does not have the range of a guy like Andruw Jones in his prime. But he is not "terrible" defensively.

Bucfan, just by watching him play, I'd agree with you. And I'll certainly admit that today's defensive statistics leave a lot to be desired; I take every system with a huge grain of salt. But when a guy is rated as terrible by every single system that rates defense, I have to assume that he's at least "bad".

I wonder if his bad defensive numbers might have something to do with the facts that the Pirates have him play such a shallow center field? He's fast enough to play decent center. I suspect that the problem lies in positioning.

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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:24 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
to follow up, Joe Sheehan was on Ellis Cannon the other night and said much the same. He was not as harsh, but he used a set of defensive sabremetrics to state that McClouth was below average defensively. Not nearly as harsh as Law, but still his point was they ran a bunch of computer simulatation of all balls hit to all CFers last year, and by plotting where they fell in relation to the positional play and range of the CFer they could figure out the "true" Gold Glove (never stated BTW). He just mentioned that after all was said and done, McClouth cost his team 54 "extra" runs last year. Good at cutting of singles, but his shallow positional play and limited range was taken advantage of for a lot of doubles (thus increasing the other teams OPS, and where all that goes... )

Sheehan said to trade him now at his peak.

Sheehan did not seem at all aware that McClouth will probably ultimately end up in a corner spot.

Sheehan's reason was to get 3 prospects for McClouth in a "Bay" trade to add to the minors to support the Alverez, McCutch and Tabata group for a run in 2012.

ZM

I think that Sheehan is aware that McLouth is destined for a corner spot. He just realizes that his bat is marginal for a corner outfielder.

A nice improvement over Nyjer's, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:26 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
to follow up, Joe Sheehan was on Ellis Cannon the other night and said much the same. He was not as harsh, but he used a set of defensive sabremetrics to state that McClouth was below average defensively. Not nearly as harsh as Law, but still his point was they ran a bunch of computer simulatation of all balls hit to all CFers last year, and by plotting where they fell in relation to the positional play and range of the CFer they could figure out the "true" Gold Glove (never stated BTW). He just mentioned that after all was said and done, McClouth cost his team 54 "extra" runs last year. Good at cutting of singles, but his shallow positional play and limited range was taken advantage of for a lot of doubles (thus increasing the other teams OPS, and where all that goes... )

ZM


McLouth's response to this is towards the end of this article: http://www.hsconnect.com/page/content.d ... l?nav=5012

Apparently, this is another "stats" versus "observations" conflict.

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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:38 pm 
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Pirates4real wrote:
dr.j wrote:
I can understand doubting if McLouth can duplicate his overall performance from 2008. However, to say that he is "terrible" sounds mildly personal as if he is trying to rub it in to Pirate fans. Thought that Law could have used a little more tact when challenged on the topic. I know the Pirates are a laughing stock, but to state that a Gold Glover is "awful" and "terrible" is a bit off the wall.


Yeah, couldn't have said it any better myself, he comes off like a real hack.

Here's just hoping that Nate can make him look like a fool with his play on the field.


Nate's not "awful." The word "limited" would be more appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Keith Law on McLouth and Ohlendorf
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:24 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
to follow up, Joe Sheehan was on Ellis Cannon the other night and said much the same. He was not as harsh, but he used a set of defensive sabremetrics to state that McClouth was below average defensively. Not nearly as harsh as Law, but still his point was they ran a bunch of computer simulatation of all balls hit to all CFers last year, and by plotting where they fell in relation to the positional play and range of the CFer they could figure out the "true" Gold Glove (never stated BTW). He just mentioned that after all was said and done, McClouth cost his team 54 "extra" runs last year. Good at cutting of singles, but his shallow positional play and limited range was taken advantage of for a lot of doubles (thus increasing the other teams OPS, and where all that goes... )

ZM


McLouth's response to this is towards the end of this article: http://www.hsconnect.com/page/content.d ... l?nav=5012

Apparently, this is another "stats" versus "observations" conflict.

Here's hoping that McLouth doesn't turn into Shea Hillenbrand and start thinking that he's not subject to criticism.

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