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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:25 pm 
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You're saying you want the "almost sure fire DL list"?

I'm saying, I've said, let's see how Karsten's throws. He did get an out away from perfect game last year. What other pitcher on that list can say that?

To be more direct. Yes, a healthy Karsten's throwing strikes to contact instead of two games of 98 mph Joba, and a few months of arm trouble.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:39 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
You're saying you want the "almost sure fire DL list"?

I'm saying, I've said, let's see how Karsten's throws. He did get an out away from perfect game last year. What other pitcher on that list can say that?

To be more direct. Yes, a healthy Karsten's throwing strikes to contact instead of two games of 98 mph Joba, and a few months of arm trouble.

ZM


This is the most insane comment I've seen in a long time!!! Who says they will have arm trouble. My God the Pirates have had any number of guys, ranging from soft tossers to hard throwers have arm trouble. And again, let me know how that Karsten bandwagon feels after watching him for a month or so. As always I hope I'm wrong because the Bucs need him to do well but................


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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Some harsh criticism for a guy who nearly threw a no hitter last year.

One game does not a player make.

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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:01 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
You're saying you want the "almost sure fire DL list"?

I'm saying, I've said, let's see how Karsten's throws. He did get an out away from perfect game last year. What other pitcher on that list can say that?

Karstens recorded only 4 strikeouts during his near-perfect game last year. Not exactly what I would call dominating. Karstens was very lucky to get as far as he did with all the contact he allowed during that game.

You're viewpoint is suffering from a small sample size. Look at Karstens career as a whole and you can see why the Yankees did not do much hand-wringing when they traded him to the Pirates: he's just not that good.

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To be more direct. Yes, a healthy Karsten's throwing strikes to contact instead of two games of 98 mph Joba, and a few months of arm trouble.

ZM

Gosh, you're right! The Yankees were such IDIOTS to trade us Karstens instead of Joba.... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:08 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:

To be more direct. Yes, a healthy Karsten's throwing strikes to contact instead of two games of 98 mph Joba, and a few months of arm trouble.

ZM


I'd be willing to wager a Mannys pulled pork sandwich that Joba pitches more innings at the big league level than Karstens. Not sure if you heard, but Karstens was dealing with some arm issues this spring too. I'd take the guy with talent and arm issues over a guy with no talent and arm issues.


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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:28 pm 
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BBF wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:

To be more direct. Yes, a healthy Karsten's throwing strikes to contact instead of two games of 98 mph Joba, and a few months of arm trouble.

ZM


I'd be willing to wager a Mannys pulled pork sandwich that Joba pitches more innings at the big league level than Karstens. Not sure if you heard, but Karstens was dealing with some arm issues this spring too. I'd take the guy with talent and arm issues over a guy with no talent and arm issues.


Is that over and entire career or for the season? I'll see your pulled pork for a Manny burger. mmmm burger...


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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:10 am 
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The question is not how good is Karsten's. I believe I''ve been clear in calling him Josh Fogg.

The comment is directed at those who point to this list, and drool that it would make a better rotation than the Pirates have now.

My comments point out that there is nothing at all exciting about that list. It is full of soff-tossers (including Karstens), head cases, and injury updates.

Take your poison.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:37 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
The question is not how good is Karsten's. I believe I''ve been clear in calling him Josh Fogg.

The comment is directed at those who point to this list, and drool that it would make a better rotation than the Pirates have now.

My comments point out that there is nothing at all exciting about that list. It is full of soff-tossers (including Karstens), head cases, and injury updates.

Take your poison.

ZM



Just off the top of my head, there are 6 pitchers on that list who most scouts will tell you are going to be bona fide studs. Of course some may not pan out but they'd be worth the shot ahead of Karstens. Chamberlain, Scherzer, Sanchez, Zimmerman, McDonald, and Miller are all young guys with great stuff who you can't possibly argue would not be an upgrade from Karstens, both now and definitely in the future. Then there is Marshall and Lewis who most would say are a definite upgrade both now and in the future. That's just off the top of my head. There may be a few more names on that list that are also better now and in the future. You are strictly focusing on the Colon's, Benson's, and Ponson's of the list. Obviously I wouldn't want any of those guys but to say there aren't quite a few guys on that list that would upgrade our staff now and later is flat out wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:41 am 
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Great stuff? Good arms? You mean like Benson and Wells?

Scouts said that about those as well, remember.

Pick your poison.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:15 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
It is full of soff-tossers (including Karstens), head cases, and injury updates.


ZM


As is the Pirates entire rotation.

If I have to take a bunch of "head cases and injury updates", I'll take guys with actual upside, thank you very much.

If I had to "pick my poison", I would certainly choose a rotation of Joba, Scherzer, Zimmerman, Sanchez, and McDonald over pretty much everyone the Pirates have not named Maholm. (I'm leaving Miller out of it for now because the Marlins have botched his development IMO). No question about it. And Maholm would be a #4 or 5 starter in that rotation.

I seem to remember having a very similar conversation around this time last year with Jurrjens being the topic....


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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:27 pm 
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cappscrew138 wrote:
I'll see your pulled pork...

You guys need to watch the banter. This is a family forum.


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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:39 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Heres a question...

Who would you rather have in the rotation Karstens or Gorzo?

Right now, no contest. Karstens.

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 Post subject: Re: 5th Starters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:22 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Just off the top of my head, there are 6 pitchers on that list who most scouts will tell you are going to be bona fide studs. Of course some may not pan out but they'd be worth the shot ahead of Karstens. Chamberlain, Scherzer, Sanchez, Zimmerman, McDonald, and Miller are all young guys with great stuff who you can't possibly argue would not be an upgrade from Karstens, both now and definitely in the future.

That was my point. There are some pretty good arms on that list. Scherzer, Sanchez, Miller, etc. are all top-flight prospects.

But in terms of a number 5 starter, Karstens is the Pirates' best option right now. He can go 7 innings when he is locating his 2-seam, he can keep a team in the game and give the team a chance to win. That is what you look for in a number 5 starter.


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