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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:07 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:

So, is the most respected infield coach in baseball incompetent, or just a liar?


I'll give you the same answer YOU give when the myriad of your points are contridicted by GM statements.

I know better.

See, its easy to be as arrogant as you.

Now, realistically, Hill could be just fine with his footwork, or he could simply be covering for LaRoche, like the Pirates did all last season. What? After a trade deadline flop and a couple games, they are going to admit to you that they failed?

I'm sure Hill still believes he can fix LaRoche.

And, if you had bothered to watch the game, you would have seen LaRoche downright trip over his own feet on the second groundball error... before he opened his closed glove.

ZM


What is this "watch the game" thing you speak of...and is there a statistic or fielding percentage index or what not to explain poor footwork??? Hmm...... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:12 am 
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"LaRoche's primary issue, as seen by Hill, was that he was flipping his glove, meaning it was closed when the batter made contact, then flipped open to try to catch the ball. That motion, and its inherent delay, can cause any infielder trouble."

I'm sure anything is possible. The motion being described seems to me to be one that a player would be very aware of. And, at any time prior to these first few games of the new season, LaRoche never showed signs of doing this? Like I said, anything is possible but this entire scenario seems a bit odd to me. :?

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:13 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:

So, is the most respected infield coach in baseball incompetent, or just a liar?


I'll give you the same answer YOU give when the myriad of your points are contridicted by GM statements.

I know better.

See, its easy to be as arrogant as you.

Now, realistically, Hill could be just fine with his footwork, or he could simply be covering for LaRoche, like the Pirates did all last season. What? After a trade deadline flop and a couple games, they are going to admit to you that they failed?

I'm sure Hill still believes he can fix LaRoche.

And, if you had bothered to watch the game, you would have seen LaRoche downright trip over his own feet on the second groundball error... before he opened his closed glove.

ZM


What is this "watch the game" thing you speak of...and is there a statistic or fielding percentage index or what not to explain poor footwork??? Hmm...... :roll:

You're right, PP, watching Andy play one game clearly trumps a season's worth of recorded results. No wonder your analysis is so persuasive. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:17 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
[
What is this "watch the game" thing you speak of...and is there a statistic or fielding percentage index or what not to explain poor footwork??? Hmm...... :roll:


Here is the problem- Perry Hill obviously watches Laroche play. And, according to his posts, ZM watches LaRoche play. Yet, they are saying two completely different things. So I am supposed to give equal weight to them? Or, should I believe ZM over Perry Hill? Don't get me wrong, ZM is a great guy and all. But I don't see how "I watched him play" is a strong argument when others, whose job is to professionally evaluate players, disagree with the stated opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:43 am 
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I am not saying "I watched him play, therefore he has bad footwork".

This is quite simple. I watched the game, on the second error, he damn near fell on his face tripping over his own feet.

That is a simple observation. If one does not consider that bad footwork, ok.

On the whole, the Pirates have been saying since his arrival that LaRoche's defense "is good" or "just fine", despite error after error.

Can Hill work to make him better? Sure, and I suspect he will get better.

Do you believe that Hill and the brass would, contrarily say, "he sucks"? That they wouldn't protect a prized trade piece?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:51 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Do you believe that Hill and the brass would, contrarily say, "he sucks"? That they wouldn't protect a prized trade piece?

ZM


No, but I believe that if they thought the problem was footwork and not his glove positioning, they would have said something like "He handles his glove really well, we just need to work on tightening up his footwork." Instead, they said the exact opposite.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:33 am 
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BBF wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Do you believe that Hill and the brass would, contrarily say, "he sucks"? That they wouldn't protect a prized trade piece?

ZM


No, but I believe that if they thought the problem was footwork and not his glove positioning, they would have said something like "He handles his glove really well, we just need to work on tightening up his footwork." Instead, they said the exact opposite.

Have to agree. I would find publicly criticizing the glovework of a "priced trade piece" anathema to trying to protect him.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:14 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:

So, is the most respected infield coach in baseball incompetent, or just a liar?


I'll give you the same answer YOU give when the myriad of your points are contridicted by GM statements.

I know better.

See, its easy to be as arrogant as you.

Now, realistically, Hill could be just fine with his footwork, or he could simply be covering for LaRoche, like the Pirates did all last season. What? After a trade deadline flop and a couple games, they are going to admit to you that they failed?

They'd be silly to give up on LaRoche unless Walker starts pounding the heck out of the ball.

Quote:
I'm sure Hill still believes he can fix LaRoche.

If by "fix" you mean get him to a point where his inadequacies in the field are more than compensated for by his bat, he's probably right, assuming that LaRoche's bat comes around. He'll probably never be more than adequate in the field, though.

Quote:
And, if you had bothered to watch the game, you would have seen LaRoche downright trip over his own feet on the second groundball error... before he opened his closed glove.

ZM

Sorry, but I'll take Hill's word for it when it comes to footwork in general. He was not focused on a single play, as you seem to be.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:15 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
sisyphus wrote:

So, is the most respected infield coach in baseball incompetent, or just a liar?


I'll give you the same answer YOU give when the myriad of your points are contridicted by GM statements.

I know better.

See, its easy to be as arrogant as you.

Now, realistically, Hill could be just fine with his footwork, or he could simply be covering for LaRoche, like the Pirates did all last season. What? After a trade deadline flop and a couple games, they are going to admit to you that they failed?

I'm sure Hill still believes he can fix LaRoche.

And, if you had bothered to watch the game, you would have seen LaRoche downright trip over his own feet on the second groundball error... before he opened his closed glove.

ZM


What is this "watch the game" thing you speak of...and is there a statistic or fielding percentage index or what not to explain poor footwork??? Hmm...... :roll:

I guess that Perry Hill doesn't actually watch the games.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:18 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I am not saying "I watched him play, therefore he has bad footwork".

This is quite simple. I watched the game, on the second error, he damn near fell on his face tripping over his own feet.

That is a simple observation. If one does not consider that bad footwork, ok.

On the whole, the Pirates have been saying since his arrival that LaRoche's defense "is good" or "just fine", despite error after error.

Can Hill work to make him better? Sure, and I suspect he will get better.

Do you believe that Hill and the brass would, contrarily say, "he sucks"? That they wouldn't protect a prized trade piece?

ZM

Yes, basing your judgment on a single play is SO much better than basing it on a single game. After all, in the history of baseball, no player has ever stumbled going after a ground ball before.

The prized piece in that trade was Morris, not LaRoche, though LaRoche was a pretty nice piece.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:50 pm 
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Wilton, you and Sisyphus are so uptight about your stats you fail to even "get" the jab...or is this like everything else on here...it's only funny or a jab if you say so. If you must know I didn't even see what Hill had said. I was merely taking a shot at your "Arrogancy" again when I saw ZM state he watched the game. I wasn't siding with anyone. But you are so hell bent on making your point and crucifying others that you didn't even get it.

And trust me, I don't go to sleep at night worrying whether I persuaded you. I'm 42 and have played, coached, and ardently followed the game of baseball since I was probably 7. I follow stats enough to do well every year in my fantasy leagues. Like I said I don't totally dismiss stats as you do observation. And I'll tell you or anyone else on this board that for Christ sake you can watch a game(you ought to try it once in a while) and see things that the numbers won't tell you...and actually enjoy it!

And I think it's humorous that now in order to make your argument against ZM you admit Hill watches the games. Well thanks for that nugget! I figured he just sat in the clubhouse at his computer crunching numbers to figure out what LaRoche's problems are defensively. Why would a coach actually watch what a player is doing...doesn't make sense to me.... :roll:


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