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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:53 pm 
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VanSlick wrote:
Seems like if LaRoche was so solid and I was just "picking on him", there wouldn't be a need to debate it for 10 pages, huh?

The volume of posts in this thread says it all.

I'll finish up by saying, he was brought in to be a clean up hitter. He has NOT cleaned up consistently and is not worth the $7 million per year he gets paid to do so.

Stats schmats. There are plenty of players in all sports that pile up great stats, but never get those numbers when they matter most. Dan Marino had great stats, but I'll take Montana when it matters. Barry Bonds had great stats, but choked when it mattered.

Because, as we all know, Dan Marino is solely responsible for the fact that the Dolphins had no decent running backs, an offensive line that sucked at run blocking, and a lousy defense.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:46 am 
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PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
LOL. WHAT power bat has EVER been behind Bay in the lineup? Aside from Craig Wilson in 2004? Unless you consider Daryl Ward a true power hitter compared to Adam LaRoche, that is.

By the way, Jason Bay carried the team to losing season after losing season. By the logic you use to blame LaRoche for being miscast as a cleanup hitter, you should say that Bay sucks because the Pirates were losers. After all, the Pirates can't afford to have a guy that only carries his team to fifth or sixth. They need a guy who will carry them into contention. Right?


Basing your expectations on a guy on where he bats is ridiculous. Would you expect Jack Wilson to crank out 35 homers if they put him in the cleanup spot?


I SAID THAT. Bay always needed a bat behind him to make things better. That is what LaRoche was brought here to do.

Are you suggesting that Jason Bay would have been a better hitter with better bats behind him?

The first column below lists Bay's OPS numbers for each full year he spent with the Pirates. The second column lists the average OPS for the guys who usually batted behind him that year, weighted for the number of games they followed him in the lineup.

.907 .715 Most common: Tike Redman, 44 games, .684 OPS.
.961 .741 Most common: Daryle Ward, 63 games, .723 OPS.
.928 .753 Most common: Jeromy Burnitz, 55 games, .711 OPS.
.746 .783 Most common: Xavier Nady, 41 games, .805 OPS.

Feel free to show me the correlation between Bay's hitting and the quality of the guy who was hitting behind him.

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And your other thing isn't at all what I was saying. And I think if you asked players and managers they would concur. Hitting 7th/8th in a quality lineup as opposed to 4th on a team that is really really counting on you is very different. Don't you think the expectations for Chipper Jones were different than LaRoche at the time. I sure do.

I know that you think it helps your argument to say that LaRoche batted 7th or 8th for the Braves, but it simply isn't true. Here is a list of what the percentage of his total at bats were for each batting order position for LaRoche with the Braves

1 0.1%
2 3.6%
3 3.5%
4 12.3%
5 33.7%
6 17.8%
7 23.2%
8 2.8%
9 2.8%

Bobby Cox wrote LaRoche's name into the number 5 spot more often than any other. In three season he had a grand total of 40 plate appearances in the number 8 spot. I'd say that hitting 5th, 6th or 7th for a pennant contender probably carries quite a bit more pressure than hitting 4th, 5th or 6th for a last place team.

And yes, the expectations for Chipper Jones were much higher than they were for Adam LaRoche. Most people do tend to expect more from future Hall of Famers than they do from a young, average first baseman.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:51 am 
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BBF wrote:
Craig Wilson debate? How about this same friggin debate from last year about Laroche?

6 pages, started on May 7th...

http://pittsburghsports.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56

I know there was at least one other thread around the same time, but I don't have the patience to search for it.

I can't wait for the Pirates to trade Laroche just so we don't have to keep having the same argument every year. Then we can throw him in the pile of history, along with Craig, productive outs, shortened swings, the relevance of the catcher to the pitching game, the value of RBI's.......

It won't matter. Folks will just pick a new whipping boy, and there will be no correlation between said whipping boy's ability and his status as prime whipping boy. But you can bet on one thing. The whipping boy won't be scrappy.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:57 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
It won't matter. Folks will just pick a new whipping boy, and there will be no correlation between said whipping boy's ability and his status as prime whipping boy.

There is a ton of truth in this observation, to the point that I am going to try not to start harping on a player. If I do harp on one player too much in a game thread, please ignore this post.

sisyphus wrote:
But you can bet on one thing. The whipping boy won't be scrappy.

I was going to flip out about this point, but realized you wrote "scrappy" and not "crappy." :D


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:42 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Are you suggesting that Jason Bay would have been a better hitter with better bats behind him?

The first column below lists Bay's OPS numbers for each full year he spent with the Pirates. The second column lists the average OPS for the guys who usually batted behind him that year, weighted for the number of games they followed him in the lineup.

.907 .715 Most common: Tike Redman, 44 games, .684 OPS.
.961 .741 Most common: Daryle Ward, 63 games, .723 OPS.
.928 .753 Most common: Jeromy Burnitz, 55 games, .711 OPS.
.746 .783 Most common: Xavier Nady, 41 games, .805 OPS.

Feel free to show me the correlation between Bay's hitting and the quality of the guy who was hitting behind him.


I know that you think it helps your argument to say that LaRoche batted 7th or 8th for the Braves, but it simply isn't true. Here is a list of what the percentage of his total at bats were for each batting order position for LaRoche with the Braves

1 0.1%
2 3.6%
3 3.5%
4 12.3%
5 33.7%
6 17.8%
7 23.2%
8 2.8%
9 2.8%

Bobby Cox wrote LaRoche's name into the number 5 spot more often than any other. In three season he had a grand total of 40 plate appearances in the number 8 spot. I'd say that hitting 5th, 6th or 7th for a pennant contender probably carries quite a bit more pressure than hitting 4th, 5th or 6th for a last place team.

And yes, the expectations for Chipper Jones were much higher than they were for Adam LaRoche. Most people do tend to expect more from future Hall of Famers than they do from a young, average first baseman.


I don't think we are on the same page with our "discussion". That is what I'm saying. Bay never had real decent hitters behind him in the order and that was one of the reasons they went out and got LaRoche. To give Bay some help in the middle of the order. You can't possibly be arguing that it doesn't help to have a decent bat behind you in the order? One, hopefully you see better pitches to hit, or two, if the pitcher avoids you there is someone behind you to make them pay. There is no correlation for Bay's numbers because all those guys, with the possible exception of Nady sucked. And it doesn't always improve a players numbers but please don't argue that teams try to do this. Every manager in baseball tries to find ways to maximize their lineup. Attempting to find someone decent to hit behind Bay was a way to maximize the lineup. I can't believe I even have to defend that point. And for the record...what in the world was Tike Redman hitting behind Bay for? I don't remember but I assume Bay was hitting maybe 6th or 7th that year??? Yikes!

And as for your second point...not necessarily. The games mean more for a contender, but some guys don't do well with being "the man"(sorry, I hate that term but it's late and couldn't think of anything else). In Atlanta hitting wherever(41% 6th or 7th) he was far from "the man". There were at least 2 or 3 other guys they had higher expectations for. He could kind of hide, so to speak, and do his thing without much fanfare. He seems like the kind of guy who prefers that. In Pittsburgh, sure, the team is terrible and there is certainly no pennant pressure. However, there are 24 other guys in that clubhouse who expect him to be carrying the load, or at least his share. So in those terms, yes, there is a lot of pressure. Especially for a guy who, as I said, doesn't appear to relish it. And again, if you have heard any of the player interviews, including LaRoche, they acknowledge this fact.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:24 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
And as for your second point...not necessarily. The games mean more for a contender, but some guys don't do well with being "the man"(sorry, I hate that term but it's late and couldn't think of anything else). In Atlanta hitting wherever(41% 6th or 7th) he was far from "the man". There were at least 2 or 3 other guys they had higher expectations for. He could kind of hide, so to speak, and do his thing without much fanfare. He seems like the kind of guy who prefers that. In Pittsburgh, sure, the team is terrible and there is certainly no pennant pressure. However, there are 24 other guys in that clubhouse who expect him to be carrying the load, or at least his share. So in those terms, yes, there is a lot of pressure. Especially for a guy who, as I said, doesn't appear to relish it. And again, if you have heard any of the player interviews, including LaRoche, they acknowledge this fact.

Oh give it a rest. You're so busy trying to make LaRoche to look like he has a character flaw that you're missing the obvious: his hitting pattern has been the same in Pittsburgh as it was in Atlanta. Whether he was under pressure or not, he still hit poorly in April, passably in May and June, and excellently in later months. That is his hitting pattern. It has nothing to do with whether he relishes or doesn't relish being "the man" and has everything to do with just the way he is as a hitter and an athlete. Furthermore, anyone on the team that's dogging him for not being able to "carry the load" should stop being a load that needs to be carried and start contributing.

By the way, way to doctor the numbers. Adding his percentage of plate appearances at 6th and 7th may be more than his percentage plate appearances at 5th, but not more than his percentages at 4th and 5th, which is 46.0%. The fact of the matter is that he has been counted on as a slugger both in Atlanta and in Pittsburgh, and I don't know how you can say that playing for a non-contender has more pressure than playing for a contender does.

Fluctuation in performance is the norm, not a character flaw.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Far worse than Adam LaRoche not producing, AGAIN, is this:

ANDY LaRoche is .000 with THREE ERRORS so far. Andy LaRoche is playing because
our "Best Management Team in Baseball" salary dumped Jason Bay when they did not
have to, or need to. Then, in another stellar effort to spin it on the fans, insisted on
playing Andy LaRoche at third base, so that the public might think that our trade for
"quality depth" was a good and neccessary one.

Truth.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:31 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Far worse than Adam LaRoche not producing, AGAIN, is this:

ANDY LaRoche is .000 with THREE ERRORS so far. Andy LaRoche is playing because
our "Best Management Team in Baseball" salary dumped Jason Bay when they did not
have to, or need to. Then, in another stellar effort to spin it on the fans, insisted on
playing Andy LaRoche at third base, so that the public might think that our trade for
"quality depth" was a good and neccessary one.

Truth.

It's been 2 whole games. Take a step back from the edge; you're overreacting.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:32 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Far worse than Adam LaRoche not producing, AGAIN, is this:

ANDY LaRoche is .000 with THREE ERRORS so far. Andy LaRoche is playing because
our "Best Management Team in Baseball" salary dumped Jason Bay when they did not
have to, or need to. Then, in another stellar effort to spin it on the fans, insisted on
playing Andy LaRoche at third base, so that the public might think that our trade for
"quality depth" was a good and neccessary one.

Truth.

It's been 2 whole games. Take a step back from the edge; you're overreacting.


Okay then.

I'll just forget about that sub .200 Batting Average from last year too.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:40 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Willton wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Far worse than Adam LaRoche not producing, AGAIN, is this:

ANDY LaRoche is .000 with THREE ERRORS so far. Andy LaRoche is playing because
our "Best Management Team in Baseball" salary dumped Jason Bay when they did not
have to, or need to. Then, in another stellar effort to spin it on the fans, insisted on
playing Andy LaRoche at third base, so that the public might think that our trade for
"quality depth" was a good and neccessary one.

Truth.

It's been 2 whole games. Take a step back from the edge; you're overreacting.


Okay then.

I'll just forget about that sub .200 Batting Average from last year too.

Indeed you should, especially since his minor league record doesn't support that being how he will hit in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:43 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Willton wrote:
It's been 2 whole games. Take a step back from the edge; you're overreacting.


Okay then.

I'll just forget about that sub .200 Batting Average from last year too.


You should forget about the two games; you shouldn't forget about last season. His performance last season will be a factor in how long of a leash he is given this year. So if the two games performance turns into twenty or thirty, perhaps you re-evaluate. But, really, it's not time to euthanize just yet.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:45 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Willton wrote:
It's been 2 whole games. Take a step back from the edge; you're overreacting.


Okay then.

I'll just forget about that sub .200 Batting Average from last year too.


You should forget about the two games; you shouldn't forget about last season. His performance last season will be a factor in how long of a leash he is given this year. So if the two games performance turns into twenty or thirty, perhaps you re-evaluate. But, really, it's not time to euthanize just yet.

Not to mention that the guy had a hand injury last year.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:46 pm 
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burghermeister wrote:
But, really, it's not time to euthanize just yet.


Great wording there. I'd also add that after two games our 3-4-5 hitters are a combined 2 for 23, Nate and Ryan both looking for their first hits of the year.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:54 pm 
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Except that for his fielding, it hasn't been two games.

It was all last year, and all this spring, and now two games.

These aren't hard plays folks, he dropped a pop up, and his footwork has been just terrible on the groundballs.

This has nothing to do with any hand injury.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:59 pm 
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ZM:

He'll sink or swim with his bat. Defense was never his strong point, limited range, average arm, and as you pointed out, below average foot work.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:00 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Except that for his fielding, it hasn't been two games.

It was all last year, and all this spring, and now two games.

These aren't hard plays folks, he dropped a pop up, and his footwork has been just terrible on the groundballs.

This has nothing to do with any hand injury.

ZM

The hitting does.

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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:40 pm 
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Willton wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
And as for your second point...not necessarily. The games mean more for a contender, but some guys don't do well with being "the man"(sorry, I hate that term but it's late and couldn't think of anything else). In Atlanta hitting wherever(41% 6th or 7th) he was far from "the man". There were at least 2 or 3 other guys they had higher expectations for. He could kind of hide, so to speak, and do his thing without much fanfare. He seems like the kind of guy who prefers that. In Pittsburgh, sure, the team is terrible and there is certainly no pennant pressure. However, there are 24 other guys in that clubhouse who expect him to be carrying the load, or at least his share. So in those terms, yes, there is a lot of pressure. Especially for a guy who, as I said, doesn't appear to relish it. And again, if you have heard any of the player interviews, including LaRoche, they acknowledge this fact.

Oh give it a rest. You're so busy trying to make LaRoche to look like he has a character flaw that you're missing the obvious: his hitting pattern has been the same in Pittsburgh as it was in Atlanta. Whether he was under pressure or not, he still hit poorly in April, passably in May and June, and excellently in later months. That is his hitting pattern. It has nothing to do with whether he relishes or doesn't relish being "the man" and has everything to do with just the way he is as a hitter and an athlete. Furthermore, anyone on the team that's dogging him for not being able to "carry the load" should stop being a load that needs to be carried and start contributing.

By the way, way to doctor the numbers. Adding his percentage of plate appearances at 6th and 7th may be more than his percentage plate appearances at 5th, but not more than his percentages at 4th and 5th, which is 46.0%. The fact of the matter is that he has been counted on as a slugger both in Atlanta and in Pittsburgh, and I don't know how you can say that playing for a non-contender has more pressure than playing for a contender does.

Fluctuation in performance is the norm, not a character flaw.


You've obviously never played sports, but only look at numbers. Jesus. The conversation was about pressure and expectation levels. And yes, I know what his hitting pattern has been. In Atlanta he had a team that was equipped to overcome that because they had more talent and he didn't have to be as big of a contributor. Not saying he didn't contribute, but it wasn't as essential to his team. In Pittsburgh it is absolutely essential.

And I didn't doctor the numbers. Doctoring the numbers would have meant I changed them. I simply added two together. Geez, I figured you'd be thrilled to see me able to add two NUMBERS together. And I CLEARLY stated that he doesn't feel the same game pressure in Pittsburgh as Atlanta. But again, if you've played you know that some players have trouble with the pressure of being a main cog. If you say he was a main cog in Atlanta that is just plain wrong. In Pittsburgh he has been asked to carry way more of the load. And for the last time I am not bashing LaRoche, mad at him for not being "scrappy", or trying to avoid the other issues on the team. Just arguing his value during the first 2 months of the season and how it effects the team. And I never said his teammates dogged him, I said during interviews they stated the importance of him starting out better. So why don't YOU stop putting words in my mouth.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:45 pm 
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I tend to believe that the Dodgers knew EXACTLY what they were doing when they traded Andy LaRoche. Why else would they trade to acquire Casey Blake 5 days BEFORE the Bay trade...unless they were comfortable with losing Andy?? They had watched him the entire way through their system and knew EXACTLY what they had. And they gave up a very good catching prospect to get Blake.

There are 3 teams in the majors (Dodgers, Braves and Red Sox) that seem to be very good at deciding which prospects to keep and which ones to trade away. They almost always seem to keep the ones that succeed...and let go the ones that fail. And we were involved in a single trade that involved 2 of those 3 teams.

Much of Andy LaRoche's success at the AAA level was built on playing in the second most favorable park for offense in all of AAA baseball in Las Vegas. And his statistical splits at Las Vegas show it with star potential in home games and mediocre numbers on the road. Where the good defensive 3b reputation came from, I don't know...because all the minor league fielding numbers tell is...lots of range...lots of errors. And we haven't seen the range in Pittsburgh...just the errors.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:16 pm 
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Thunder wrote:
I tend to believe that the Dodgers knew EXACTLY what they were doing when they traded Andy LaRoche. Why else would they trade to acquire Casey Blake 5 days BEFORE the Bay trade...unless they were comfortable with losing Andy?? They had watched him the entire way through their system and knew EXACTLY what they had. And they gave up a very good catching prospect to get Blake.

There are 3 teams in the majors (Dodgers, Braves and Red Sox) that seem to be very good at deciding which prospects to keep and which ones to trade away. They almost always seem to keep the ones that succeed...and let go the ones that fail. And we were involved in a single trade that involved 2 of those 3 teams.


You just contradicted yourself. You say that LA "is good at deciding which prospects to keep", but earlier state that "they gave up a very good catching prospect to get Blake", an unspectacular replacement level player. This in itself would give some validation to the belief shared by some that LA was not down on LaRoche, just impatient.

In my opinion LA wanted to make the playoffs so badly that they were willing to mortgage a part of their future. Santana is a well known commodity at a premium position. Why would you trade him for a stiff like Blake? Blake right now is better than LaRoche, but that ain't saying much. At least LaRoche has a chance to become above average.

Thunder wrote:
Much of Andy LaRoche's success at the AAA level was built on playing in the second most favorable park for offense in all of AAA baseball in Las Vegas. And his statistical splits at Las Vegas show it with star potential in home games and mediocre numbers on the road. Where the good defensive 3b reputation came from, I don't know...because all the minor league fielding numbers tell is...lots of range...lots of errors. And we haven't seen the range in Pittsburgh...just the errors.


Everything I've ever read from BA stated LaRoche was average to slightly below average defensively. As I said earlier, he'll sink or swim with his bat.


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 Post subject: Re: This Just In...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Thunder wrote:
There are 3 teams in the majors (Dodgers, Braves and Red Sox) that seem to be very good at deciding which prospects to keep and which ones to trade away. They almost always seem to keep the ones that succeed...and let go the ones that fail. And we were involved in a single trade that involved 2 of those 3 teams.
...


There are two others, Cleveland and Minnesota.

Guess where much of the current Pirate office comes from...

ZM

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