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 Post subject: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:34 pm 
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Way to go Clint. Leave a right handed reliever in who can't find the strike zone to face two good left handed hitters, with Watson and Wilson in the bullpen. Nice Move Clint!


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:04 pm 
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His gameday management of pitchers is easily his biggest flaw as manager. I really don't have a big issue with him other than that, honestly. He's cost the team games leaving starters in to implode or with things like last not, sticking with a relief pitcher who's struggling.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:23 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
His gameday management of pitchers is easily his biggest flaw as manager. I really don't have a big issue with him other than that, honestly. He's cost the team games leaving starters in to implode or with things like last not, sticking with a relief pitcher who's struggling.

I don't remember a lot of complaints about his gameday management of pitchers last year.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:50 pm 
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What we need is Dusty Baker's expertise in managing pitchers!


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:20 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
RTJR wrote:
His gameday management of pitchers is easily his biggest flaw as manager. I really don't have a big issue with him other than that, honestly. He's cost the team games leaving starters in to implode or with things like last not, sticking with a relief pitcher who's struggling.

I don't remember a lot of complaints about his gameday management of pitchers last year.


I don't remember as many blown saves last year.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:40 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
RTJR wrote:
His gameday management of pitchers is easily his biggest flaw as manager. I really don't have a big issue with him other than that, honestly. He's cost the team games leaving starters in to implode or with things like last not, sticking with a relief pitcher who's struggling.

I don't remember a lot of complaints about his gameday management of pitchers last year.


Only when he didn't put in the closer in a 'non-save situation'... or maybe mostly.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:05 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
RTJR wrote:
His gameday management of pitchers is easily his biggest flaw as manager. I really don't have a big issue with him other than that, honestly. He's cost the team games leaving starters in to implode or with things like last not, sticking with a relief pitcher who's struggling.

I don't remember a lot of complaints about his gameday management of pitchers last year.


I don't remember as many blown saves last year.

No kidding. The bullpen goes in the tank, and the manager takes the blame. Makes no sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:02 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
RTJR wrote:
His gameday management of pitchers is easily his biggest flaw as manager. I really don't have a big issue with him other than that, honestly. He's cost the team games leaving starters in to implode or with things like last not, sticking with a relief pitcher who's struggling.

I don't remember a lot of complaints about his gameday management of pitchers last year.

For what it's worth I have always loved Hurdle's motivational skills and his public relation skills. But I've always hated his game management skills.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:08 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
RTJR wrote:
His gameday management of pitchers is easily his biggest flaw as manager. I really don't have a big issue with him other than that, honestly. He's cost the team games leaving starters in to implode or with things like last not, sticking with a relief pitcher who's struggling.

I don't remember a lot of complaints about his gameday management of pitchers last year.

For what it's worth I have always loved Hurdle's motivational skills and his public relation skills. But I've always hated his game management skills.

Felt the same way about Leyland. He was great at the hard things, but he couldn't make out a lineup card, and he never did figure out how to handle Wakefield.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:28 pm 
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Why the hell would you put Cole back out there at 105 pitches? That almost never ends well.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:38 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Why the hell would you put Cole back out there at 105 pitches? That almost never ends well.


Faith in your players is great and all. Tonight was insanity.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:41 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
Why the hell would you put Cole back out there at 105 pitches? That almost never ends well.

Last night took Frankie out at 91 after an infield hit, and tonight does this...Hurdle is mysterious for sure with his decision making.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:42 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Why the hell would you put Cole back out there at 105 pitches? That almost never ends well.


Faith in your players is great and all. Tonight was insanity.


Leaving Cole in was the definition of a lack of faith in bullpen. I wonder why.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:53 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Why the hell would you put Cole back out there at 105 pitches? That almost never ends well.


Faith in your players is great and all. Tonight was insanity.


Leaving Cole in was the definition of a lack of faith in bullpen. I wonder why.


Is it possible for a manager to be 'rattled'? Because tonight was it.

I get it. The 'pen is problematic. Cole is dealing. Two run lead at home. But for the love of God do the 'right', 'conservative' or 'by the book' thing and go to the 'pen!

I can accept bad results to good process. Lately Hurdle combines bad results and bad process. Infuriating.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:03 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
RTJR wrote:
His gameday management of pitchers is easily his biggest flaw as manager. I really don't have a big issue with him other than that, honestly. He's cost the team games leaving starters in to implode or with things like last not, sticking with a relief pitcher who's struggling.

I don't remember a lot of complaints about his gameday management of pitchers last year.


I do. He's done this his entire time here.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:06 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
RTJR wrote:
His gameday management of pitchers is easily his biggest flaw as manager. I really don't have a big issue with him other than that, honestly. He's cost the team games leaving starters in to implode or with things like last not, sticking with a relief pitcher who's struggling.

I don't remember a lot of complaints about his gameday management of pitchers last year.


I do. He's done this his entire time here.

Oh really? People were complaining last year, with the second best bullpen in the NL? One that rarely blew a late lead?

If any were complaining, which I don't remember at all, they were saying a lot more about themselves and their judgment than they were about Hurdle.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:16 pm 
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From what I remember there were more complaints about him not knowing when to give starters the hook rather than actual bullpen management.

And yeah tonight was maddening. I hate putting your pitcher in a position to throw 120 pitches, especially with the lower half of the order due up in his final frame. That's a Matheny level of incompetence in managing workload.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:18 pm 
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Yes, people still recognized when he would leave a starter out there for too long or when he'd do the same with a relief guy who didn't have his best stuff that night. The only difference is last year it didn't cost as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:36 pm 
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With the caveat that I thought Cole's evening was done, hasn't Pirates management stated something to the effect that pitch count is less concerning than number of high stress pitches. Maybe that played a role in decision making as well. Cards were dominated for 5 innings and Cole had very few high stress pitches.

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 Post subject: Re: Tonight's Loss....Clint Hurdle
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:07 am 
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My main thought is that guys are so conditioned to go around 100 pitches that I don't generally like them throwing 100 some pitches, sitting, then going back out. If a guy surpasses the 100 inning threshold in the midst of an inning, so be it, but I don't like sending a guy back out there after he's past 100. Especially a guy like Cole who might not know how to save his arm and who is coming off of a DL stint recently.

I never liked Burnett pitching really deep in games because I didn't trust him, but I at least felt he was around in the league long enough to know what his arm could handle at a given point in time and what it couldn't. Injuries didn't concern me with him, they do with Cole.

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