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 Post subject: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:09 pm 
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No. 9 explained in great detail why the Pirates had a huge hill to climb due to their status in the loss column.

Losing division games is a double slam, and the back-to-back 1 run losses to my two least favorite teams on the planet basically ends the Bucco's playoff chances.

Not happy about it, but the team is just not in a good spot. Matt Holliday's seeing-eye dribbler pretty much did us in. And if I hear one more announcer extoll Holliday's brilliance for some @#$&ing pitty-pat roller that dribbled into left field, I will kill someone.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:35 pm 
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With Watson and Wilson in the pen, Clint leaves Hughes in (who couldn't find the strike zone with a GPS) to face 2 lefties!


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:59 pm 
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Corsair wrote:
With Watson and Wilson in the pen, Clint leaves Hughes in (who couldn't find the strike zone with a GPS) to face 2 lefties!

Watson should have been brought in to face Jay.

He can then go the 8th inning. He will be unavailable tomorrow, but a very likely win today, in a game with a lead, is much, much more valuable than a potential win tomorrow in a game that has not started.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:52 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Corsair wrote:
With Watson and Wilson in the pen, Clint leaves Hughes in (who couldn't find the strike zone with a GPS) to face 2 lefties!

Watson should have been brought in to face Jay.

He can then go the 8th inning. He will be unavailable tomorrow, but a very likely win today, in a game with a lead, is much, much more valuable than a potential win tomorrow in a game that has not started.


Like I said I talked to my brother who was at the game about who Hurdle had working in the pen and his text response back was, no one Hughes is on his own. Really? First, why take Liriano out? He's at 90, with a lefty coming up, that Hughes wanted no part of and Liriano had just handled for a strikeout. But to have Hughes in there with matchups looming with no thought of the inning going south, that's just bad managerical strategy.

You can't bring in a lefty from the bullpen for a foresable matchup advantage if there isn't a lefty throwing in the pen in the FUCKING 7TH INNNING!


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:15 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
No. 9 explained in great detail why the Pirates had a huge hill to climb due to their status in the loss column.

Losing division games is a double slam, and the back-to-back 1 run losses to my two least favorite teams on the planet basically ends the Bucco's playoff chances.

Not happy about it, but the team is just not in a good spot. Matt Holliday's seeing-eye dribbler pretty much did us in. And if I hear one more announcer extoll Holliday's brilliance for some @#$&ing pitty-pat roller that dribbled into left field, I will kill someone.


Bucfan is just mad because his favorite team lost. We're 1 1/2 out of a playoff spot so our chances are far from over.

Agreed that Hurdle mismanaged this one in the 7th.

This was just one of those games, more of a bad luck thing. Hate to lose these ones, like all the others.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:39 am 
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I do find it somewhat ironic that Hurdle is being chastised for not being "LaRussaesque" with his refusal to go with righty/lefty match ups when that is a frequently cited reason why people disliked LaRussa - his insistence to go with righty/lefty match-ups.

And, FWIW, I wanted Hurdle to sprint out of the dugout after Hughes' unintentional/intentional walk of Carpenter and bring in a lefty BEFORE Jay was introduced as a PH. Jay is on fire and I'd rather have Bourjos facing Watson or Wilson than Jay facing any pitcher. Not sure that Jay would have pinch hit if Hurdle brought in a lefty immediately after the walk.

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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:57 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Corsair wrote:
With Watson and Wilson in the pen, Clint leaves Hughes in (who couldn't find the strike zone with a GPS) to face 2 lefties!

Watson should have been brought in to face Jay.

He can then go the 8th inning. He will be unavailable tomorrow, but a very likely win today, in a game with a lead, is much, much more valuable than a potential win tomorrow in a game that has not started.


The pitcher's spot was due up 4th. I wonder if that was a factor. Though he could have double switched and put Barmes in for Walker. Though Barmes due up 4th wouldn't be ideal either. I agree with you though. Watson was the play. I would have gotten him him ready as soon as it was clear Lackey was staying in the game to sac bunt. Bring Watson in to face Carpenter. That would ensure Jon Jay stayed on the bench if Carpenter did manage to reach.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:36 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
No. 9 explained in great detail why the Pirates had a huge hill to climb due to their status in the loss column.

Losing division games is a double slam, and the back-to-back 1 run losses to my two least favorite teams on the planet basically ends the Bucco's playoff chances.

Not happy about it, but the team is just not in a good spot. Matt Holliday's seeing-eye dribbler pretty much did us in. And if I hear one more announcer extoll Holliday's brilliance for some @#$&ing pitty-pat roller that dribbled into left field, I will kill someone.


Bullpen. Bullpen. Bullpen. Bullpen.

I've said ad nauseum that Jared Hughes, with his low K rate, pitches at the mercy of the BABIP Gods. And they hung an L on him last night. If the Pirates had bolstered their 'pen to add one better arm, with a better K rate, to be the 7th inning guy (or at least one of them), then Hughes doesn't have the ball with men on base against the likes of Jay and Holliday.

If the Pirates' bullpen, to this point, were merely AVERAGE in terms of holding leads, the team is close to, if not in, first place in the NL Central. Ugh.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:43 am 
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Yep. 17 blown leads after 7 innings this year. Last night's was just an inning sooner. Hughes didn't exactly get shelled- 2 of the three hits were not well struck. But when a K is not in your arsenal, that's going to happen. He had absolutely no business pitching to Jay. That guy just kills us.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:21 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If the Pirates' bullpen, to this point, were merely AVERAGE in terms of holding leads, the team is close to, if not in, first place in the NL Central. Ugh.


JC -
I get your point. I really do. And I am as frustrated, disappointed, dismayed (insert whatever adjective fits) with last night's loss. However, let's not look past the fact that, when the bullpen is contiually asked to hold and close out one run games, the team is going to have a fair number of blown holds and blown saves.

Hell, if Rosenthal was asked to protect a one run lead last night, he blows a save. Instead, the Cardinals handed him a 2 run cushion.

Yes, the bullpen has given away some multi-run leads as well but its my impression that the Pirates bullpen has been given a razor thin margin many times this year which is playing with fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:52 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
No. 9 explained in great detail why the Pirates had a huge hill to climb due to their status in the loss column.

Losing division games is a double slam, and the back-to-back 1 run losses to my two least favorite teams on the planet basically ends the Bucco's playoff chances.

Not happy about it, but the team is just not in a good spot. Matt Holliday's seeing-eye dribbler pretty much did us in. And if I hear one more announcer extoll Holliday's brilliance for some @#$&ing pitty-pat roller that dribbled into left field, I will kill someone.


Bullpen. Bullpen. Bullpen. Bullpen.

I've said ad nauseum that Jared Hughes, with his low K rate, pitches at the mercy of the BABIP Gods. And they hung an L on him last night. If the Pirates had bolstered their 'pen to add one better arm, with a better K rate, to be the 7th inning guy (or at least one of them), then Hughes doesn't have the ball with men on base against the likes of Jay and Holliday.

If the Pirates' bullpen, to this point, were merely AVERAGE in terms of holding leads, the team is close to, if not in, first place in the NL Central. Ugh.


Yep. But most people will site injuries as the reason we may not make the playoffs. Easily could of upgraded the bench and bullpen before the season and at the deadline but failed to do so. I personally thought Grilli was done and Morris/Gomez/Pimental/Hughes weren't good enough or were due for regression and would of upgraded in the offseason.

There are a lot of different ways we could of upgraded this team, but did nothing. Some will site extending Morton and signing Volquez and trading for Ike as big moves. I get extending Morton, and signing Volquez, but the Ike Davis trade was a desperation move. Should of signed Jose Abreu.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:19 pm 
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Dr. Phibes wrote:
Should of signed Jose Abreu.


Amen.

Could you imagine what this Pirates' offense would look like with Jose Abreu at 1B? Wow.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:15 pm 
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buccosfan77 wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Corsair wrote:
With Watson and Wilson in the pen, Clint leaves Hughes in (who couldn't find the strike zone with a GPS) to face 2 lefties!

Watson should have been brought in to face Jay.

He can then go the 8th inning. He will be unavailable tomorrow, but a very likely win today, in a game with a lead, is much, much more valuable than a potential win tomorrow in a game that has not started.


Like I said I talked to my brother who was at the game about who Hurdle had working in the pen and his text response back was, no one Hughes is on his own. Really? First, why take Liriano out? He's at 90, with a lefty coming up, that Hughes wanted no part of and Liriano had just handled for a strikeout. But to have Hughes in there with matchups looming with no thought of the inning going south, that's just bad managerical strategy.

You can't bring in a lefty from the bullpen for a foresable matchup advantage if there isn't a lefty throwing in the pen in the FUCKING 7TH INNNING!

Lefties were hitting .215 against Hughes, .303 against Wilson. Watson also has reverse splits. As an added bonus, Jay is hitting .291 against righties, .400 against lefties. So bringing in a lefty would have produced a matchup DISADVANTAGE.

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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:21 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Lefties were hitting .215 against Hughes, .303 against Wilson. Watson also has reverse splits. As an added bonus, Jay is hitting .291 against righties, .400 against lefties. So bringing in a lefty would have produced a matchup DISADVANTAGE.


What the Pirates needed that inning was another good bullpen pitcher who can K batters, whether righty or lefty. Hughes is utterly at the mercy of the BABIP Gods.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:02 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Lefties were hitting .215 against Hughes, .303 against Wilson. Watson also has reverse splits. As an added bonus, Jay is hitting .291 against righties, .400 against lefties. So bringing in a lefty would have produced a matchup DISADVANTAGE.


Jay historically hits better against righties. Yes, he has done well against lefties this season thanks to a ridiculous .522 babip. With that said Jay only has 63 plate appearances against lefties this season. He has only started 8 games against southpaws. Matheny knows what Jon Jay's weakness is. Personally I'd prefer to avoid the red hot Jon Jay and challenge the weak hitting Peter Bourjos to beat me. Jay > Bourjos. So bringing in the lefty would still create an ADVANTAGE. It should have been done against Carpenter to get a favorable matchup on Bourjos.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:22 pm 
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For everyone talking about the offense you do realize that the Pirates are 4th in the NL and 10th in all of baseball in runs scored right?

The major issue with the bullpen is the fact our staters only go 5+ innings, sometimes 6, very few times 7.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:39 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
For everyone talking about the offense you do realize that the Pirates are 4th in the NL and 10th in all of baseball in runs scored right?

The major issue with the bullpen is the fact our staters only go 5+ innings, sometimes 6, very few times 7.


So, next year? Can't fix pitching in one month if its been average the entire year. In 9's post I stated pitching and defense would need to get this team in. This team isn't going to score 8 and 10 runs every game.

Early, mid season its easy to look past a loss, move along, but its getting to the point where this team needs more and needs to get hot.

The steelers started 0-4 last season? Playoff baseball was fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:24 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
For everyone talking about the offense you do realize that the Pirates are 4th in the NL and 10th in all of baseball in runs scored right?


Yep, fully realize that. I also realize that the Cardinals are tied with the Cubs for second last in the NL for runs scored. The Pirates have outscored them by a total of 62 runs this year (555-493).

However, I personally believe that the more important statistic - far more important - is run distribution, not run totals.

What looks to be a vastly superior Pirate offense looks very different when you look at run distribution.

Pirates' Offense (131 games):
Games in which they've scored less than 4 runs: 63
Games in which they've scored exactly 4 runs: 16
Games in which they've scored more than 4 runs: 52

Cardinals' Offense (130 games)
Games in which they've scored less than 4 runs: 57
Games in which they've scored exactly 4 runs: 20
Games in which they've scored more than 4 runs: 53

The Pirates' offense and the Cardinals' offense have scored more than 4 runs in nearly the same number of games.
However, the Pirates' offense has put up less than 4 runs in 6 more games than the Cardinals.
The Cardinals have also scored 4 runs in 4 more games than the Pirates have scored 4 runs.

Breaking it down further . . .
The Pirates have only been shut out 6 times; the Cardinals 11.
The Pirates have only scored 1 run 11 times; the Cardinals 15
Here's where it gets bad . . .
The Pirates have only scored 2 runs 25 times; the Cardinals 8
The Pirates have only scored 3 runs 21 times; the Cardinals 7

You simply aren't going to win many games scoring 0, 1 or 2 runs and that's been the Pirates' offensive output in 42 games. That's a total of 32% of the schedule. Nearly one game in every series has the Pirates scoring 0, 1 or 2 runs.

Its also tough to win by only scoring 3 runs. Yet, the Pirates' offense has scored 3 runs or less in 63 games. That's 49% of their schedule. Nearly every other game, the Pirates have scored 0, 1, 2 or 3 runs.

Remember our laments about the Pirates' inability to complete a sweep? Hmmmmmmm . . . . . .

Now let's look at the Brewers, who have outscored the Pirates by 14 runs (an average of .1 runs/game)
Games in which they've scored less than 4 runs: 53
Games in which they've scored exactly 4 runs: 21
Games in which they've scored more than 4 runs: 57

If you consider 4 runs in a game to be the "tipping point" where winning percentages change from very positive to very negative, the Brewers have scored 0, 1, 2 or 3 runs in 10 less games than the Pirates.

You won't find me arguing that the starting pitchers have been lights out great (they haven't), that the bullpen has been the 2013 Shark Tank (they haven't) but you also won't find me arguing that the Pirates' offense is lights out because of the total number of runs scored this year. They have a disproportionate share of games where they put up few runs compared to a team that has scored a similar number of runs (Brewers) and a team that they have grossly outscored (Cardinals).

And . . . let's face it . . . a season consists of 162 individual contests and the Pirates' offense has done a weaker job in putting out a competitive run level in far more games than has the Brewers or Cardinals' offenses. That has a more direct impact upon W-L record than simply riding the benefits of 8 games in which they've scored 10 or more runs (the Brewers have 5 and the Cardinals 2). Those extra runs don't mean much, if anything in the W-L column - (except for the May 5 debacle :evil: ).

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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:12 pm 
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My .02-cents for what little it is worth but..

Why does the manager get involved in pitching changes anyhow?
The Pitching coach is the one who works with the players and he knows them best, Let him make the decisions.

The manager can sit on 3rd base and 'coach'

I know I know...it doesn't work that way, but I had to throw my though out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Sorry, but that pretty much does it for 2014
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:34 pm 
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buccosfan77 wrote:
rellimie wrote:
For everyone talking about the offense you do realize that the Pirates are 4th in the NL and 10th in all of baseball in runs scored right?

The major issue with the bullpen is the fact our staters only go 5+ innings, sometimes 6, very few times 7.


So, next year? Can't fix pitching in one month if its been average the entire year. In 9's post I stated pitching and defense would need to get this team in. This team isn't going to score 8 and 10 runs every game.

Early, mid season its easy to look past a loss, move along, but its getting to the point where this team needs more and needs to get hot.

The steelers started 0-4 last season? Playoff baseball was fun.


I'm just saying that the offense has been pretty good. Starting pitching not eating up enough innings is hurting the bullpen.


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