Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:06 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
NSMaster56 wrote:
The Cuban and Japanese player market is 'true capitalism' in motion.

Would many Cuban and/or Japanese players be willing to come to America if they knew they weren't going to make millions of dollars their first contract?

I would venture to say that a vast majority of Cuban ballplayers would PAY to come to America, if they were free to come and go as they pleased.

As for Japanese players, we just don't know. Like Cuban players, they aren't free to come to America, but for a different reason. Their contracts tie them to their clubs, who must be paid a lot of money to relinquish their rights, so usually we only see the very best of those who want to come, and the very best demand big money.

Either way, it ain't capitalism, because the market isn't free. Appropriate, since the words "professional baseball" and "capitalism" have no business showing up in the same sentence. If baseball was true capitalism there would be no anti-trust exemption, and any team that is losing money would be free to move anywhere they want. So the A's would be in San Jose, and god knows how many teams there would be distributed around the New York City region.

The only fair solution to the problem from the point of view of teams who lack limitless bankrolls is to subject foreign players to the same draft that we use to punish young American prospects. That isn't capitalism either, but at least it evens the playing field a bit.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
NSMaster56 wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
There needs to be either a salary cap implemented or the restrictions need to be rescinded on amateur talent. The system, as currently constructed, is broken.


I don't see how MLB could institute an international player salary cap (and keep the amateur level one) without also have a pro/team salary cap.

How could they defends having two different business models in the same overall system? It would be massively hypocritical and scream 'collusion' (as they would be driving down the costs of younger talent).

You don't think that the draft drives down the costs of younger talent all by itself?

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
IA Pirate wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
I wonder how much of a work stoppage it would take to change their minds? Now I'm thinking like a Republican...


I'd take a work stoppage to fix baseball. I'd love to blow up the players union.

Yeah, the world was good back in the days when players were pampered slaves.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:19 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:21 am
Posts: 5640
sisyphus wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
There needs to be either a salary cap implemented or the restrictions need to be rescinded on amateur talent. The system, as currently constructed, is broken.


I don't see how MLB could institute an international player salary cap (and keep the amateur level one) without also have a pro/team salary cap.

How could they defends having two different business models in the same overall system? It would be massively hypocritical and scream 'collusion' (as they would be driving down the costs of younger talent).

You don't think that the draft drives down the costs of younger talent all by itself?


Oh, it absolutely does. But MLB can still hide behind the illusion of 'free market' through the international market.

Once they implement cost-controls for all 'amateur' talents, it doesn't seem legal to not impose similar constraints on the rest of their work force.

_________________
Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:23 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:21 am
Posts: 5640
sisyphus wrote:
I would venture to say that a vast majority of Cuban ballplayers would PAY to come to America, if they were free to come and go as they pleased.


Would you venture to say that the BEST players would pay to come to America, knowing their talent levels and what they command on the 'open market'?

sisyphus wrote:
As for Japanese players, we just don't know. Like Cuban players, they aren't free to come to America, but for a different reason. Their contracts tie them to their clubs, who must be paid a lot of money to relinquish their rights, so usually we only see the very best of those who want to come, and the very best demand big money.


Which is why MLB would be smarter trying to convince the Japanese leagues to loosen restrictions on their end than implementing on their own. It's not likely, but...

sisyphus wrote:
Either way, it ain't capitalism, because the market isn't free.


Are you familiar with capitalism? :D ;)

sisyphus wrote:
Appropriate, since the words "professional baseball" and "capitalism" have no business showing up in the same sentence. If baseball was true capitalism there would be no anti-trust exemption, and any team that is losing money would be free to move anywhere they want. So the A's would be in San Jose, and god knows how many teams there would be distributed around the New York City region.


Touche.

sisyphus wrote:
The only fair solution to the problem from the point of view of teams who lack limitless bankrolls is to subject foreign players to the same draft that we use to punish young American prospects. That isn't capitalism either, but at least it evens the playing field a bit.


That is the fairest/simplest solution, but least likely considering the dollar factor.

_________________
Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
NSMaster56 wrote:
Once they implement cost-controls for all 'amateur' talents, it doesn't seem legal to not impose similar constraints on the rest of their work force.

I don't know, I think that their anti-trust exemption might come into play.

The current systems makes no sense to me. Either all talent acquisition should be through the draft, or it should be through free agency.

Somebody earlier in the thread mentioned the signing of a couple of players from India. I'm the first to admit that the whole story is a pretty funny one, but I also know this: there are about a billion people in India, and most of them can't name a single major league team, but the ones who can will name the Pirates. Same goes for South Africa (Gift Ngoepe). That's two countries with a cricket background, so baseball wouldn't be an entirely foreign thing to them. Similar to Australia in many that way. Have you noticed the influx of players from Australia over the last 10 years or so? Signing those guys was highly unlikely to produce so much as a single game played for the Pirates, but it was a very smart investment. A very long term investment, but smart nonetheless.

Remember when the Pirates signed Masumi Kuwata from Japan? He had been a fine pitcher, highly respected in his homeland, but he was 39 years old, and his fastball was topping out somewhere around 85 mph. They knew he couldn't pitch any more. But they went ahead and brought him up, and he debuted against the Yankees, fulfilling his lifelong dream. They didn't sign him to help that lousy 2007 team, they signed him to open a door to Japan. After the season they tried to hire him for a front office job, which he unfortunately turned down. Looks like that long term investment isn't ever going to pay off, but it was smart to give it a try.

Sorry for the digression, but this thread got me thinking about international talent acquisition in general.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
NSMaster56 wrote:
Would you venture to say that the BEST players would pay to come to America, knowing their talent levels and what they command on the 'open market'?

Hyperbole: An exaggerated statement or claim not meant to be taken literally.

I was trying to say that all the best Cuban players would already be here if they were free, just like all the best players from the rest of the Caribbean and South America.

NSMaster56 wrote:
Which is why MLB would be smarter trying to convince the Japanese leagues to loosen restrictions on their end than implementing on their own. It's not likely, but...

Exactly. Why would Japanese clubs turn down a source of big money? It's just not going to happen.

NSMaster56 wrote:
Are you familiar with capitalism? :D ;)

Sure, I usually deal with ticket scalpers when I go to a ballgame. The last bastion of true capitalism we have :-)

NSMaster56 wrote:
That is the fairest/simplest solution, but least likely considering the dollar factor.

I don't know, the only teams who wouldn't like it are those with limitless dollars to spend on foreign players.

Come to think of it, that's exactly why it's not going to happen. Baseball never fails to close any loophole that low revenue teams find that might work to their advantage.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:48 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:21 am
Posts: 5640
sisyphus wrote:
The current systems makes no sense to me. Either all talent acquisition should be through the draft, or it should be through free agency.


Agreed. Sooner or later the façade of MLB's systems, much like the NCAA, will be challenged.

sisyphus wrote:
Sorry for the digression, but this thread got me thinking about international talent acquisition in general.


Digress on! Good points!

_________________
Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:00 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:21 am
Posts: 5640
sisyphus wrote:
Come to think of it, that's exactly why it's not going to happen. Baseball never fails to close any loophole that low revenue teams find that might work to their advantage.


The only reason why I think the Japanese player system is semi-justified, and it isn't straight in-line logic with my overall opinions on talent acquisition, is because the Nippon league is considered 'professional' (and most of the players acquired are older, ergo considered more 'seasoned' players, i.e. not 'prospects').

While the NPB is admittedly inferior to MLB, and maybe no more than an AAA equivalent, they have produced enough players who have demonstrated the ability to contribute to MLB teams right away (from Nomo and Irabu to Tanaka). In a way, the current system is like FIFA/European football where players are exchanged for extravagant fees. This is not to say it's the best or a completely justifiable system, but there is enough precedence to let it happen/continue.

Cuban leagues though... there have been reports/talks of scouts gaining more access and what not, but it's still a mostly unknown at best league. And while Cuba is known for their baseball skills/talents, many note how their pro leagues are inferior or not well-adjusted for MLB. Perhaps that's just a socio-economic bias?

While many immigrated Cubans end up coming to America around the same 'developed' age as Japanese players (I'm thinking specifically of El Duque in this situation, but there have been others), the lack of accuracy in their scouting reports and/or overall history (age, past injuries, even their 'true names') makes the market murkier. That is, the Cuban/South American market seems more 'third hand' or 'you get what you pay for' with like risk involved.

I can envision a scenario where America [eventually] works with Cuba to establish more 'legitimacy' in the transition of players, to the point where they are acquired via the draft. It's tough to envision a similar scenario in Japan.

_________________
Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
NSMaster56 wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
The current systems makes no sense to me. Either all talent acquisition should be through the draft, or it should be through free agency.


Agreed. Sooner or later the façade of MLB's systems, much like the NCAA, will be challenged.

I don't think so, the rules are negotiated with the union, and that's a big difference from the way the NCAA operates. Or maybe I should say "operated".

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:39 pm 
Offline
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:47 pm
Posts: 333
NSMaster56 wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Come to think of it, that's exactly why it's not going to happen. Baseball never fails to close any loophole that low revenue teams find that might work to their advantage.


The only reason why I think the Japanese player system is semi-justified, and it isn't straight in-line logic with my overall opinions on talent acquisition, is because the Nippon league is considered 'professional' (and most of the players acquired are older, ergo considered more 'seasoned' players, i.e. not 'prospects').

While the NPB is admittedly inferior to MLB, and maybe no more than an AAA equivalent, they have produced enough players who have demonstrated the ability to contribute to MLB teams right away (from Nomo and Irabu to Tanaka). In a way, the current system is like FIFA/European football where players are exchanged for extravagant fees. This is not to say it's the best or a completely justifiable system, but there is enough precedence to let it happen/continue.

Cuban leagues though... there have been reports/talks of scouts gaining more access and what not, but it's still a mostly unknown at best league. And while Cuba is known for their baseball skills/talents, many note how their pro leagues are inferior or not well-adjusted for MLB. Perhaps that's just a socio-economic bias?

While many immigrated Cubans end up coming to America around the same 'developed' age as Japanese players (I'm thinking specifically of El Duque in this situation, but there have been others), the lack of accuracy in their scouting reports and/or overall history (age, past injuries, even their 'true names') makes the market murkier. That is, the Cuban/South American market seems more 'third hand' or 'you get what you pay for' with like risk involved.

I can envision a scenario where America [eventually] works with Cuba to establish more 'legitimacy' in the transition of players, to the point where they are acquired via the draft. It's tough to envision a similar scenario in Japan.


Here is the issue with the Japanese leagues. If MLB were to revamp the system and step on the toes of the Nippon league they will likely do same to us. We have players going over to their country too. Sure, they are AAAA type free agent players. But that is because Japan recognizes the team rights of MLB. Say we just unilaterally open up the draft to Japanese talent and bypass the Japanese teams' rights. Why wouldn't they start drafting young minor league talent in the states and offer real money to poach those players? They might not convince many to come but they could drive up the costs.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:27 pm
Posts: 2149
This is no different than how soccer operates with regards to buying/selling players. The clubs with the most money tend to snag the biggest names from around the globe.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
mjdouble wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Come to think of it, that's exactly why it's not going to happen. Baseball never fails to close any loophole that low revenue teams find that might work to their advantage.


The only reason why I think the Japanese player system is semi-justified, and it isn't straight in-line logic with my overall opinions on talent acquisition, is because the Nippon league is considered 'professional' (and most of the players acquired are older, ergo considered more 'seasoned' players, i.e. not 'prospects').

While the NPB is admittedly inferior to MLB, and maybe no more than an AAA equivalent, they have produced enough players who have demonstrated the ability to contribute to MLB teams right away (from Nomo and Irabu to Tanaka). In a way, the current system is like FIFA/European football where players are exchanged for extravagant fees. This is not to say it's the best or a completely justifiable system, but there is enough precedence to let it happen/continue.

Cuban leagues though... there have been reports/talks of scouts gaining more access and what not, but it's still a mostly unknown at best league. And while Cuba is known for their baseball skills/talents, many note how their pro leagues are inferior or not well-adjusted for MLB. Perhaps that's just a socio-economic bias?

While many immigrated Cubans end up coming to America around the same 'developed' age as Japanese players (I'm thinking specifically of El Duque in this situation, but there have been others), the lack of accuracy in their scouting reports and/or overall history (age, past injuries, even their 'true names') makes the market murkier. That is, the Cuban/South American market seems more 'third hand' or 'you get what you pay for' with like risk involved.

I can envision a scenario where America [eventually] works with Cuba to establish more 'legitimacy' in the transition of players, to the point where they are acquired via the draft. It's tough to envision a similar scenario in Japan.


Here is the issue with the Japanese leagues. If MLB were to revamp the system and step on the toes of the Nippon league they will likely do same to us. We have players going over to their country too. Sure, they are AAAA type free agent players. But that is because Japan recognizes the team rights of MLB. Say we just unilaterally open up the draft to Japanese talent and bypass the Japanese teams' rights. Why wouldn't they start drafting young minor league talent in the states and offer real money to poach those players? They might not convince many to come but they could drive up the costs.

Let 'em. We're all capitalists here, aren't we?

There might be a lot of attempted poaching, but most top American ballplayers will have no desire to play in Japan if they know anything at all about Japanese baseball, and you can bet that MLB would make damn sure that they know. I think that most Japanese players would probably feel the same, so all of the poaching would really only have an impact on a small percentage of players going each way.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:09 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:21 am
Posts: 5640
sisyphus wrote:
mjdouble wrote:
Here is the issue with the Japanese leagues. If MLB were to revamp the system and step on the toes of the Nippon league they will likely do same to us. We have players going over to their country too. Sure, they are AAAA type free agent players. But that is because Japan recognizes the team rights of MLB. Say we just unilaterally open up the draft to Japanese talent and bypass the Japanese teams' rights. Why wouldn't they start drafting young minor league talent in the states and offer real money to poach those players? They might not convince many to come but they could drive up the costs.

Let 'em. We're all capitalists here, aren't we?

There might be a lot of attempted poaching, but most top American ballplayers will have no desire to play in Japan if they know anything at all about Japanese baseball, and you can bet that MLB would make damn sure that they know. I think that most Japanese players would probably feel the same, so all of the poaching would really only have an impact on a small percentage of players going each way.


It would be an interesting system.

Why wouldn't some Americans go overseas, increase their value/worth and them come over by signing big/new contracts?

This is assuming, of course, that the player didn't sign with a MLB team. Otherwise he might still be obligated to fall under the rules as established by the MLBPA (team control for six years; only two arb eligible years).

Of course, if NPB players were subject to re-entering the draft pool, the pay-offs of increasing value in the NPB would be negligible. Might as well just play college ball or work one's way up through the minors.

NPB has more/the most to lose in a international player re-structuring.

_________________
Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:15 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:42 pm
Posts: 915
Between the owners, vendors and players the MLB is making billions of dollars. Trust me when I say that not a single owner, player, coach, executive feels like anything is broke.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:34 pm 
Offline
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:47 pm
Posts: 333
sisyphus wrote:
mjdouble wrote:

Here is the issue with the Japanese leagues. If MLB were to revamp the system and step on the toes of the Nippon league they will likely do same to us. We have players going over to their country too. Sure, they are AAAA type free agent players. But that is because Japan recognizes the team rights of MLB. Say we just unilaterally open up the draft to Japanese talent and bypass the Japanese teams' rights. Why wouldn't they start drafting young minor league talent in the states and offer real money to poach those players? They might not convince many to come but they could drive up the costs.

Let 'em. We're all capitalists here, aren't we?

There might be a lot of attempted poaching, but most top American ballplayers will have no desire to play in Japan if they know anything at all about Japanese baseball, and you can bet that MLB would make damn sure that they know. I think that most Japanese players would probably feel the same, so all of the poaching would really only have an impact on a small percentage of players going each way.


There doesn't have to be top players going over to muck up the system. The majority of players in MLB are 0 to 3 pre-arb players. They don't make anything. Japanese teams start offering some of these guys 3 year deals for 5 x what they'd make in their first few years in the MLB and you can be certain some would jump. More importantly you give an agent like Scott Boras a source of leverage with his clients that he never had a real leverage with before.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:22 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6284
The grass is not greener in Nippon. Whole different vibe and way the game is. They do it a different way…..in many ways... 8-) 8-)


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4242
Location: Zelienople, PA
Charlie Feeney was right.

One year contracts and an open UFA market every year. Player value/worth would be paid for as performance dictates.

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:55 am 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2247
Location: Naples, FL
ZelieMike wrote:
Charlie Feeney was right.

One year contracts and an open UFA market every year. Player value/worth would be paid for as performance dictates.

ZM



Would actually be fair if they didn't have 6-year rookie contracts. Would certainly be interesting.

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4242
Location: Zelienople, PA
And, a team with limited resources could "make a run" at the missing piece by being able to overpay once in a while if they chose.

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits