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 Post subject: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:16 pm 
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I hope there's something the new commish can do to level the playing field regarding the competition for Cuban players. There is some serious talent coming to the Bigs from that island, and with the exceptions of Chapman and Cespedes, they all have gone to the big markets. Same goes for Japan. Here is a partial list just off the top of my head...

Abreu- White Sox
Puig- Dodgers
the second baseman with the long name- Dodgers
Morales- Angels
Darvish- Rangers
Matsusake- Red Sox
Castillo- Red Sox

Who did we get? Yoslan Herrera. Who? Yeah, exactly. The game is still broke.


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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:08 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
I hope there's something the new commish can do to level the playing field regarding the competition for Cuban players. There is some serious talent coming to the Bigs from that island, and with the exceptions of Chapman and Cespedes, they all have gone to the big markets. Same goes for Japan. Here is a partial list just off the top of my head...

Abreu- White Sox
Puig- Dodgers
the second baseman with the long name- Dodgers
Morales- Angels
Darvish- Rangers
Matsusake- Red Sox
Castillo- Red Sox

Who did we get? Yoslan Herrera. Who? Yeah, exactly. The game is still broke.


But the Pirates were able to get the pitchers from India!

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:18 pm 
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Yeah, we have that corner of the world locked down!

Additions to the list

Leonnys Martin- Texas
Jose Iglesias- Red Sox, now Tigers
Dayan Viciedo- White Sox
Alexei Ramirez- White Sox
Yunel Escobar- Blue Jays, now Rays


And a few small markets
Jose Fernandez- Marlins
Grandal
Alonso
Despaigne- all Padres


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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:28 pm 
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The Cuban and Japanese player market is 'true capitalism' in motion.

Would many Cuban and/or Japanese players be willing to come to America if they knew they weren't going to make millions of dollars their first contract?

Those countries are giving America their best, 'most seasoned' players. Many/most aren't 'prospects' in the same way that draftees are. So capping how much they can earn might have the effect of decreasing the influence to play American baseball in the first place.

The best foreign players are almost always going to want to play in the biggest markets for the most money. And the biggest market teams are going to be willing to pay that money/take that risk to generate more money. The main exception to that rule will be when a region has high demographics of the foreign players' race (see the Mariners; they created an Asian market pipeline: Mac Suzuki, Kazou Sasaki, Ichiro, Shin-Soo Choo, Kenji Johjima, Kuma...).

The overall foreign system, while biased [and leading to an escalation of costs], seems to be working pretty well. Teams like the Pirates still have access to a plethora of foreign talent in other markets (Central and South America). Their ability to tap that expansive talent pool more or less 'levels the playing field' (and also incurs less risk; at least cost wise).

Let the fat cats pay for their expensive toys. I am encouraged by the fact that teams like the Pirates 'cast a wider net' and build deeper teams, presumably to last longer than desperate glory-chasing franchises.

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Last edited by NSMaster56 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:31 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
And a few small markets
Jose Fernandez- Marlins
Grandal
Alonso
Despaigne- all Padres


Grandal and Alonso were Reds, traded to the Pads in the Mat Latos deal.

Cincy clearly established a pipeline to Cuban talent.

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:43 pm 
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In fairness, Grandal, Alonso, and Fernandez were all drafted, they had defected Cuba and played ball in the US and were thus not subject to bidding wars.

Fernandez played HS ball in Florida and then Grandal and Alonso were both taken out of the U of Miami.

Regardless, just about every big money player has gone to larger type markets so I think the general prevailing wisdom holds up, and Japanese situations are even more skewed towards large market teams as a result of the posting fee that needs to be paid.

And, the results definitely back up that the big money players go to big markets. In addition to the names previously mentioned, the Cubs have Jorge Soler waiting in the wings and in the most publicized biddings (Castillo and Abreu) I didn't see them linked to anybody besides the big names.

Although, it was rumored (albeit on Twitter) that the Rockies made a big push for Abreu but didn't make his final 3 (which were CWS, Boston, and Houston) because he didn't want to play in the NL. So that might be skewed.

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:16 pm 
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The Pirates could have out-bid the White Sox for Jose Abreu if they wanted to. They have that cash. Now, it's a riskier contract for the Pirates than the White Sox, which means the Pirates' brass would have to have been convinced of Abreu's talent, but now that deal looks like an absolute STEAL.

Building a baseball team within a budget is all about calculated risk.


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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:16 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
And a few small markets
Jose Fernandez- Marlins
Grandal
Alonso
Despaigne- all Padres


Grandal and Alonso were Reds, traded to the Pads in the Mat Latos deal.

Cincy clearly established a pipeline to Cuban talent.


The Cubans have all been "Reds" since 1960. But if this process is true capitalism at work, then I guess I'm becoming a Communist in my old age.


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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:18 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
In fairness, Grandal, Alonso, and Fernandez were all drafted, they had defected Cuba and played ball in the US and were thus not subject to bidding wars.

Fernandez played HS ball in Florida and then Grandal and Alonso were both taken out of the U of Miami.

Regardless, just about every big money player has gone to larger type markets so I think the general prevailing wisdom holds up, and Japanese situations are even more skewed towards large market teams as a result of the posting fee that needs to be paid.

And, the results definitely back up that the big money players go to big markets. In addition to the names previously mentioned, the Cubs have Jorge Soler waiting in the wings and in the most publicized biddings (Castillo and Abreu) I didn't see them linked to anybody besides the big names.

Although, it was rumored (albeit on Twitter) that the Rockies made a big push for Abreu but didn't make his final 3 (which were CWS, Boston, and Houston) because he didn't want to play in the NL. So that might be skewed.


Yeah, I thought of Soler, but couldn't type fast enough to keep up with my brain.


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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:23 pm 
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Jose Fernandez played high school baseball in the Tampa area and was drafted by the Marlins.

EDIT: NM, that's been mentioned.

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:24 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
And a few small markets
Jose Fernandez- Marlins
Grandal
Alonso
Despaigne- all Padres


Grandal and Alonso were Reds, traded to the Pads in the Mat Latos deal.

Cincy clearly established a pipeline to Cuban talent.


The Cubans have all been "Reds" since 1960. But if this process is true capitalism at work, then I guess I'm becoming a Communist in my old age.



A lot of sports are commie by nature. That's why I never put much stock in direct "well that's not how business works!" comparisons to say the NFL and MLB.

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:31 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
And a few small markets
Jose Fernandez- Marlins
Grandal
Alonso
Despaigne- all Padres


Grandal and Alonso were Reds, traded to the Pads in the Mat Latos deal.

Cincy clearly established a pipeline to Cuban talent.


The Cubans have all been "Reds" since 1960. But if this process is true capitalism at work, then I guess I'm becoming a Communist in my old age.


The main issue is that Free Agency and Cuban/Japanese players are capitalist markets, but the draft and Dominican/Venezualan/Taiwanese/Colombian markets are something else entirely.

There needs to be either a salary cap implemented or the restrictions need to be rescinded on amateur talent. The system, as currently constructed, is broken. People were "concerned" about the money that draft picks were getting, but isn't that something that's better decided in a natural fashion by teams reigning in spending after they discover it's not a worthwhile investment? (they wouldn't discover that, but that was the concern)

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:43 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
The Pirates could have out-bid the White Sox for Jose Abreu if they wanted to. They have that cash. Now, it's a riskier contract for the Pirates than the White Sox, which means the Pirates' brass would have to have been convinced of Abreu's talent, but now that deal looks like an absolute STEAL.

Building a baseball team within a budget is all about calculated risk.


I think most teams probably could have outbid them. The only team I've seen that got close to them was the Rockies at $63MM but that a) was floated out by the Rox front office and b) would pretty much indicate that he held a strong preference to play in the AL since the Rockies weren't mentioned as prominent contenders and didn't make his final 3.

The $63MM bid would have been $8MM more than the Astros and $13MM more than the BoSox so it wasn't chump change. My initial thought is that the Rox front office is lying or they made the $63MM offer over like 8-10 years. I don't buy that he was against playing in the NL, although I would buy it if people said NL teams didn't bid as high as AL teams due to his strong DH profile midway through the contract.

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:48 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
The Cubans have all been "Reds" since 1960.


:lol:

Touche.

doug frobel wrote:
But if this process is true capitalism at work, then I guess I'm becoming a Communist in my old age.


Don't worry, I won't tell Senator McCarthy. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:01 pm 
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StarlingArcher wrote:
There needs to be either a salary cap implemented or the restrictions need to be rescinded on amateur talent. The system, as currently constructed, is broken.


I don't see how MLB could institute an international player salary cap (and keep the amateur level one) without also have a pro/team salary cap.

How could they defends having two different business models in the same overall system? It would be massively hypocritical and scream 'collusion' (as they would be driving down the costs of younger talent).

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:10 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
There needs to be either a salary cap implemented or the restrictions need to be rescinded on amateur talent. The system, as currently constructed, is broken.


I don't see how MLB could institute an international player salary cap (and keep the amateur level one) without also have a pro/team salary cap.

How could they defends having two different business models in the same overall system? It would be massively hypocritical and scream 'collusion' (as they would be driving down the costs of younger talent).


I think they need to put in a team salary cap if they're going to keep draft and Dominican spending the way it is. As it currently stands, small markets are completely excluded from the free agent/international markets and any sort of barriers/downsides to talent at the amateur level for large markets were completely taken away with the slotting system.

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:12 pm 
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It'll never happen, guys.

I think the players would actually do better -- i.e., receive a greater overall share of the revenue -- of baseball implemented a salary cap and salary floor, but that union is DEAD SET against it. C'est la vie.


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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:49 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
It'll never happen, guys.

I think the players would actually do better -- i.e., receive a greater overall share of the revenue -- of baseball implemented a salary cap and salary floor, but that union is DEAD SET against it. C'est la vie.


I wonder how much of a work stoppage it would take to change their minds? Now I'm thinking like a Republican...


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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:59 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
I wonder how much of a work stoppage it would take to change their minds? Now I'm thinking like a Republican...


I'd take a work stoppage to fix baseball. I'd love to blow up the players union.

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 Post subject: Re: Cuban Players
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:01 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
It'll never happen, guys.

I think the players would actually do better -- i.e., receive a greater overall share of the revenue -- of baseball implemented a salary cap and salary floor, but that union is DEAD SET against it. C'est la vie.


And so is a large portion of the owners. You can't have a salary floor/cap without a healthier share of revenues.


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