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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:19 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
All of that is correct.

But still. So what? I matters not in the Pirates development at this stage. Just like Shelton was a focal point of fan frustration that proved to have no impact on how good or bad the Pirates will be, Weiters is a focal point that will not determine a thing about what the Pirates will be from now on.

You say we passed on him, yep, we also passed on Pujols, Garcioparra and any number of other great players, for not so great players.

It matters not at this point and only presents a "Maalox Moment" for some, and a shrug from me.

ZM

It matters as a point from which to learn. Because it was such a big honking mistake, it is worth noting constantly because we don't want it to be repeated again.

If people are allowed to bitch about Sid Bream, we can bitch about Matt Wieters.

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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:57 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
But in terms of the ideological shift that's taken place since DL left town, I don't think you could be more mistaken. Coonely and Huntington have repeatedly pointed to the 2007 draft as the sort of mistake the Pirates can't afford to make going forward. You don't think they'd like to jump in the Way-Back Machine and get another crack at him?...


You make the point. This is NH, not DL. Nothing to learn from this as Coonelly and NH are not part of that problem. In fact, there was only one guy who was the problem. Not the scouts, not the ownership... it was a guy who is not here anymore.

So, really, if you wish to continue to take Maalox about Weiters, feel free. Its not worth worrying about. Me? I take it "one game at a time". I've "put it behind me" and will "lace 'em up tomorrow" because its a "new game".

Wilton;

As for Sid Bream, and bitching? Randy Marsh still umpires in this league, and he still directly affects Pirates outcomes. Further, he still can't figure out a strike zone.

That type of indigestion is palable, real, and affects the future of the Buccos.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 7:32 pm 
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It's impossible to blame Bob Nutting here.
Dave Littlefield is evil, after all, he and he alone drafted Moskos because of "signability".
And of course, the seventeen nonstop years of losing cannot be Bob Nuttings' fault.
Cam Bonifay, Dave Littlefield, Sid Thrift, Kevin McClatchy, the hot dog vendor,
Barry Bonds Bad Arm, the ghost of Sid Bream, Three Rivers Stadium, Stan Belinda,
Free Agency, the Baseball Gods, Bad Scouting, poor Dominican Facilities, the ghost of
steve Blass, Small Market Problems, Poor Scouting, Poor Drafting, Bad Luck, and one thousand other excuses not named "Bob Nutting" are at fault here.

Never mind the one person who has been at the helm for more than ten years.

Never mind the one person who has always had a major share of ownership.

Never mind the one person who does not make his money in the city of Pittsburgh, rather the suburb of Wheeling, West Virginia.

No, this is not Ron Burkle. Ron Burkle signs checks, and wins.

No, this is not the Rooney Family. The Rooney family signs checks, and wins.

This is a used car salesman, who takes your money, and sells you a lemon.

And calls it a "Bobblehead".

Yes, I know, I post the same post every time.

You know why? Because I love the Pirates, and I despise this two bit thief who steals our money, and sells us an amusement park, bobbleheads, and seventeen years of losing.


AND YES, IT IS HIS FAULT.


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:08 pm 
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It is not possible to forget the Weiters fiasco. Pirate fans will remember Littlefield and that joke for many more years.

As long as the grass grows, rivers flow, and JR rests starters when they are hot, we will remember Weiters.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:20 am 
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Quote:
Never mind the one person who has been at the helm for more than ten years.

Bob Nutting hasn't been at the helm until 2007.

Quote:
Never mind the one person who has always had a major share of ownership.

That major share of ownership does not convey decision-making power.

Quote:
Never mind the one person who does not make his money in the city of Pittsburgh, rather the suburb of Wheeling, West Virginia.

So what? George Steinbrenner made his bones in Cleveland, not New York. He lived in Tampa as owner of the Yankees, not New York. Who gives a shit about where Bob keeps his money?

Quote:
No, this is not Ron Burkle. Ron Burkle signs checks, and wins.

Who the heck is Ron Burkle?

Quote:
No, this is not the Rooney Family. The Rooney family signs checks, and wins.

Ah yes, let's compare baseball to football. The comparison makes so much sense. :roll:

Quote:
This is a used car salesman, who takes your money, and sells you a lemon.

And calls it a "Bobblehead".

Actually he's a newspaper tycoon, and I'm willing to bet he gives little input to the marketing department.

Quote:
Yes, I know, I post the same post every time.

You know why? Because I love the Pirates, and I despise this two bit thief who steals our money, and sells us an amusement park, bobbleheads, and seventeen years of losing.


AND YES, IT IS HIS FAULT.

You are deluded. Nutting hasn't sold us jack until 2007 because he wasn't in executive power until 2007. Get your facts straight. Just because he was receiving dividends from the profits of the Pirates does not mean that he had a hand in anything being done during his time as a minority owner.

But I'm sure that if you keep posting the same lie over and over, other idiots will start believing you.

Oh, and by the way, Littlefield was fired by Bob Nutting. If Nutting didn't care about winning, why would he fire Littlefield? Or Tracy, for that matter?

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:36 am 
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Bob Nutting lost last year, is losing this year, will lose next year, and the year after that.

Bob Nutting has had a major share in ownership for a very long time.

Bob Nutting puts a loser on the field.

I'm right, and I have the numbers to prove it, idiot.

Wins and Losses, Wilton, it shuts your ass up every time.


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:50 am 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Bob Nutting lost last year, is losing this year, will lose next year, and the year after that.

Bob Nutting has had a major share in ownership for a very long time.

Bob Nutting puts a loser on the field.

I'm right, and I have the numbers to prove it, idiot.

Wins and Losses, Wilton, it shuts your ass up every time.

Your wins and losses argument holds no water. Nutting is not responsible for what happened prior to 2007, as he had no executive power until that point. Further, the wins and losses of 2007 and 2008, and likely 2009 show how bad the situation was before Nutting stepped in. Therefore, your unintelligent "Wins and Losses" is just that: unintelligent.

You obviously have no idea how to build a baseball team.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:57 am 
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Willton wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Bob Nutting lost last year, is losing this year, will lose next year, and the year after that.

Bob Nutting has had a major share in ownership for a very long time.

Bob Nutting puts a loser on the field.

I'm right, and I have the numbers to prove it, idiot.

Wins and Losses, Wilton, it shuts your ass up every time.

Your wins and losses argument holds no water. Nutting is not responsible for what happened prior to 2007, as he had no executive power until that point. Further, the wins and losses of 2007 and 2008, and likely 2009 show how bad the situation was before Nutting stepped in. Therefore, your unintelligent "Wins and Losses" is just that: unintelligent.

You obviously have no idea how to build a baseball team.


Which puts me on a par with Bob Nutting.


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:06 am 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Which puts me on a par with Bob Nutting.

Nutting is not responsible for player evaluation, player assessment, player development, or any other portion of the front office that decides which players to select (Bullington over Upton, Moskos over Wieters, etc.) or the way to prepare them to join the major leagues. In fact, Nutting was not even involved in decision making for the team when those disasterous personnel decisions were made.

Currently, Neal Huntington has the role of GM with the Pirates, assisted by Frank Coonelly. In their first draft, the picked two very, very high "ceiling" guys (Alvarez and Scheppers) with the first two picks. They signed Alvarez. They also selected and signed a other very high talent players (Grossman, Miller) for "plus" signing bonuses.


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:11 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Which puts me on a par with Bob Nutting.

Nutting is not responsible for player evaluation, player assessment, player development, or any other portion of the front office that decides which players to select (Bullington over Upton, Moskos over Wieters, etc.) or the way to prepare them to join the major leagues. In fact, Nutting was not even involved in decision making for the team when those disasterous personnel decisions were made.

Currently, Neal Huntington has the role of GM with the Pirates, assisted by Frank Coonelly. In their first draft, the picked two very, very high "ceiling" guys (Alvarez and Scheppers) with the first two picks. They signed Alvarez. They also selected and signed a other very high talent players (Grossman, Miller) for "plus" signing bonuses.



Be sure and let me know when they contribute to a winning team in Pittsburgh.


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:32 am 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Be sure and let me know when they contribute to a winning team in Pittsburgh.


Okay, let's adopt your approach.

(1) Keep Nady and Marte. Uhhhhh, not so good.

(2) Keep Bay. Great for 2009 but after that? Never mind.

(3) Sign Dunn. Great for the offense but the team will have Bay in LF and Dunn in RF. God help the Pirate fly ball pitchers (Snell, Ty Taubenheim, Virgil Vazquez).

And why would Ty Taubeneim and Virgil Vazquez be in your starting rotation?? Because you do not have Karstens or Ohlendorf for the rotation, or McCutchen in the minors as a potential starter.

So, your starting staff would be Maholm, Snell, Duke, Taubenheim and Vazquez. Your top level starting candidates in the minors if, heaven forbid since it never happens, a starter is hurt of help is needed would be Jason Davis.

Your team would be fugly, pal. That team would lose 100 games this year. And more the next since Bay is gone.


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:24 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Be sure and let me know when they contribute to a winning team in Pittsburgh.


Okay, let's adopt your approach.

(1) Keep Nady and Marte. Uhhhhh, not so good.

(2) Keep Bay. Great for 2009 but after that? Never mind.

(3) Sign Dunn. Great for the offense but the team will have Bay in LF and Dunn in RF. God help the Pirate fly ball pitchers (Snell, Ty Taubenheim, Virgil Vazquez).

And why would Ty Taubeneim and Virgil Vazquez be in your starting rotation?? Because you do not have Karstens or Ohlendorf for the rotation, or McCutchen in the minors as a potential starter.

So, your starting staff would be Maholm, Snell, Duke, Taubenheim and Vazquez. Your top level starting candidates in the minors if, heaven forbid since it never happens, a starter is hurt of help is needed would be Jason Davis.

Your team would be fugly, pal. That team would lose 100 games this year. And more the next since Bay is gone.


pwned

Who plays third? I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:59 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Be sure and let me know when they contribute to a winning team in Pittsburgh.


Okay, let's adopt your approach.

(1) Keep Nady and Marte. Uhhhhh, not so good.

(2) Keep Bay. Great for 2009 but after that? Never mind.

(3) Sign Dunn. Great for the offense but the team will have Bay in LF and Dunn in RF. God help the Pirate fly ball pitchers (Snell, Ty Taubenheim, Virgil Vazquez).

And why would Ty Taubeneim and Virgil Vazquez be in your starting rotation?? Because you do not have Karstens or Ohlendorf for the rotation, or McCutchen in the minors as a potential starter.

So, your starting staff would be Maholm, Snell, Duke, Taubenheim and Vazquez. Your top level starting candidates in the minors if, heaven forbid since it never happens, a starter is hurt of help is needed would be Jason Davis.

Your team would be fugly, pal. That team would lose 100 games this year. And more the next since Bay is gone.


1. "pwned" my ass, this is a made up post.

2. This is not "my approach".

3. "my approach" has a different OWNER.

4. "My approach" has a different owner and a different president and a different GM, who spends money in order to win. An owner who spends money on current day, winning players, players who win baseball games for teams.


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:02 am 
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Rod, anyone can complain and want people fired. The problems you see don't just go away because the front office is changed completely. They have a plan and they are applying it. To be fair, it will take several years to see if they are correct or not. If you disagree, that's fine but what then is your plan that is realistic and doable. Do you have a plan or just a bitch?

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:21 am 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:
Be sure and let me know when they contribute to a winning team in Pittsburgh.


Okay, let's adopt your approach.

(1) Keep Nady and Marte. Uhhhhh, not so good.

(2) Keep Bay. Great for 2009 but after that? Never mind.

(3) Sign Dunn. Great for the offense but the team will have Bay in LF and Dunn in RF. God help the Pirate fly ball pitchers (Snell, Ty Taubenheim, Virgil Vazquez).

And why would Ty Taubeneim and Virgil Vazquez be in your starting rotation?? Because you do not have Karstens or Ohlendorf for the rotation, or McCutchen in the minors as a potential starter.

So, your starting staff would be Maholm, Snell, Duke, Taubenheim and Vazquez. Your top level starting candidates in the minors if, heaven forbid since it never happens, a starter is hurt of help is needed would be Jason Davis.

Your team would be fugly, pal. That team would lose 100 games this year. And more the next since Bay is gone.


1. "pwned" my ass, this is a made up post.

2. This is not "my approach".

3. "my approach" has a different OWNER.

4. "My approach" has a different owner and a different president and a different GM, who spends money in order to win. An owner who spends money on current day, winning players, players who win baseball games for teams.

So basically, your approach is that of the Baltimore Orioles of the 2000's. Sounds like a fabulous plan there, Rod. :roll:

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 6:49 pm 
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Willton wrote:
[quote="

4. "My approach" has a different owner and a different president and a different GM, who spends money in order to win. An owner who spends money on current day, winning players, players who win baseball games for teams.

So basically, your approach is that of the Baltimore Orioles of the 2000's. Sounds like a fabulous plan there, Rod. :roll:[/quote]

You seem like a knowledgable baseball fan Wilton.

Put aside your worship and apologies for Bob Nutting.

What's your plan?

Again, SEPARATE your love for the Nutting family, and your plan for the Pirates.

Let's see if you can do it?

Because I say you cannot.


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Rod Serling wrote:
Willton wrote:
Rod Serling wrote:

4. "My approach" has a different owner and a different president and a different GM, who spends money in order to win. An owner who spends money on current day, winning players, players who win baseball games for teams.

So basically, your approach is that of the Baltimore Orioles of the 2000's. Sounds like a fabulous plan there, Rod. :roll:


You seem like a knowledgable baseball fan Wilton.

Put aside your worship and apologies for Bob Nutting.

What's your plan?

Again, SEPARATE your love for the Nutting family, and your plan for the Pirates.

Let's see if you can do it?

Because I say you cannot.

1. Draft well. The best assets a struggling team can get are young draftees that project to be potential stars. These players will be with the team for a long time (6+ years) and will cost much less than their lesser veteran counterparts. Such players will take time to develop into productive major leaguers, and there's no guarantee that each prospect will turn into a productive major leaguer, but it is the most cost effective way to turn a team that is struggling into a team that is contending. See the Tampa Bay Rays and Cleveland Indians.

2. Engage in the international market. Some of the best players do not enter the league via the draft. Many of the best players currently in the league originated from Latin America. In order to get such players into the Pirates system, the team needs to discover who such players are. Scouts need to paid to go to those places and find those players and watch them play. It also helps if your team has a facility that can attract Latin American talent to it so that those scouts can evaluate which players are worth hiring and grooming for the major leagues.

3. Sell high on pending free agents. Good players on a struggling team that are a year or less away from free agency are not likely going to be the same good players when the team's draft prospects and international signings are ready to compete at the major league level. Thus, it is best to trade those good players to teams who want them in exchange for prospects who can be of more use to the team in the future. See the Oakland A's and Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder.

4. Buy low on undervalued players. Players that can contribute positively to a team but for some reason are not viewed highly are perfect candidates for scooping up and helping the team reach contention. See the Oakland A's and Frank Thomas.

5. Buy players in free agency to supplement the core of players. Once a core group of players, acquired from the draft, int'l signings and trades, and developed from within the team's farm system, is ready to compete for a championship, use free agency to acquire supplemental pieces that can put the team over the top and into playoff contention.

That's a quick and dirty explanation of the type of plan I'd implement.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Willton wrote:
1. Draft well. The best assets a struggling team can get are young draftees that project to be potential stars. These players will be with the team for a long time (6+ years) and will cost much less than their lesser veteran counterparts. Such players will take time to develop into productive major leaguers, and there's no guarantee that each prospect will turn into a productive major leaguer, but it is the most cost effective way to turn a team that is struggling into a team that is contending. See the Tampa Bay Rays and Cleveland Indians.

2. Engage in the international market. Some of the best players do not enter the league via the draft. Many of the best players currently in the league originated from Latin America. In order to get such players into the Pirates system, the team needs to discover who such players are. Scouts need to paid to go to those places and find those players and watch them play. It also helps if your team has a facility that can attract Latin American talent to it so that those scouts can evaluate which players are worth hiring and grooming for the major leagues.

3. Sell high on pending free agents. Good players on a struggling team that are a year or less away from free agency are not likely going to be the same good players when the team's draft prospects and international signings are ready to compete at the major league level. Thus, it is best to trade those good players to teams who want them in exchange for prospects who can be of more use to the team in the future. See the Oakland A's and Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder.

4. Buy low on undervalued players. Players that can contribute positively to a team but for some reason are not viewed highly are perfect candidates for scooping up and helping the team reach contention. See the Oakland A's and Frank Thomas.

5. Buy players in free agency to supplement the core of players. Once a core group of players, acquired from the draft, int'l signings and trades, and developed from within the team's farm system, is ready to compete for a championship, use free agency to acquire supplemental pieces that can put the team over the top and into playoff contention.

That's a quick and dirty explanation of the type of plan I'd implement.


pwned +2


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 Post subject: Re: Wieters Watch '09: How Much Pain Can You Stand?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:31 pm 
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1. Draft well. The best assets a struggling team can get are young draftees that project to be potential stars. These players will be with the team for a long time (6+ years) and will cost much less than their lesser veteran counterparts. Such players will take time to develop into productive major leaguers, and there's no guarantee that each prospect will turn into a productive major leaguer, but it is the most cost effective way to turn a team that is struggling into a team that is contending. See the Tampa Bay Rays and Cleveland Indians.

2. Engage in the international market. Some of the best players do not enter the league via the draft. Many of the best players currently in the league originated from Latin America. In order to get such players into the Pirates system, the team needs to discover who such players are. Scouts need to paid to go to those places and find those players and watch them play. It also helps if your team has a facility that can attract Latin American talent to it so that those scouts can evaluate which players are worth hiring and grooming for the major leagues.

3. Sell high on pending free agents. Good players on a struggling team that are a year or less away from free agency are not likely going to be the same good players when the team's draft prospects and international signings are ready to compete at the major league level. Thus, it is best to trade those good players to teams who want them in exchange for prospects who can be of more use to the team in the future. See the Oakland A's and Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder.

4. Buy low on undervalued players. Players that can contribute positively to a team but for some reason are not viewed highly are perfect candidates for scooping up and helping the team reach contention. See the Oakland A's and Frank Thomas.

5. Buy players in free agency to supplement the core of players. Once a core group of players, acquired from the draft, int'l signings and trades, and developed from within the team's farm system, is ready to compete for a championship, use free agency to acquire supplemental pieces that can put the team over the top and into playoff contention.

That's a quick and dirty explanation of the type of plan I'd implement.[/quote]


Good work Wilton. Credit given.


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