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 Post subject: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:54 am 
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1.) An offense that has problems driving in runs IN scoring position AND the inability to add on runs throughout the game. In other words, DRIVING IN runs in scoring position (RISP). The Pirates scored 3 runs in the 3rd inning and that's it.

2.) An unreliable Bullpen that can't hold a close lead late in the game no matter who the reliever is.

When you get a solid effort from your starting pitcher but at the same time suffer from the two critical items listed above, it's a recipe for losing. And we've seen that recipe way too often this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:44 am 
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The Brewers keep winning. Pirates are now 4.5 games out in 3rd place and are out of the two Wild Card spots.

Way to go Buccos!

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:17 am 
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I think a lot of teams would like to "suffer" through having the 13th highest average, 10th most RBI (meaning they aren't dinking a bunch of infield hits in that situation), and 10th best wRC+ with men in scoring position.

Edit: If the pitcher spot is taken out they're 9th, 11th, and 4th in those areas, respectively. Also, they're 3rd in the NL in RBI (since taking out the pitchers gave the AL teams a boost) behind LA and Colorado.

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Last edited by StarlingArcher on Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:35 am 
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Yeah, the offense is fine.

It could be better if Cutch, Jordy and Sky were healthy, but those are the breaks of the game.

The bullpen has been and will most likely continue to be problematic. That's a real shame after how reliable they were last year, but I suppose that shows the volatility of that aspect of the game (?).

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:20 pm 
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bassoondirector wrote:
1.) An offense that has problems driving in runs IN scoring position AND the inability to add on runs throughout the game. In other words, DRIVING IN runs in scoring position (RISP). The Pirates scored 3 runs in the 3rd inning and that's it.

2.) An unreliable Bullpen that can't hold a close lead late in the game no matter who the reliever is.

When you get a solid effort from your starting pitcher but at the same time suffer from the two critical items listed above, it's a recipe for losing. And we've seen that recipe way too often this year.

The Pirates are fifth in the league in batting average with RISP. They are fourth in the league in OPS with RISP. They're third in the league in runs scored. Whatever problems they might have, scoring runs in not among them. It's pitching, pitching, pitching.

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:23 pm 
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I must respectfully disagree about the offense. This offense has failed time and time again in the clutch. how many times have we had runners in scoring position with nobody out and get nothing? Many. Metrics and numbers guys can disagree but I watch every game and this lack of clutch hitting has killed the Bucs all year. How many times have we gotten several runs like last night only to not score again the whole game? Way too frequently. We have a starter on the ropes and continually let them dance through the rain drops and turn the game around. This, IMHO, is a case where the numbers don't tell the real story. 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:25 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Yeah, the offense is fine.

It could be better if Cutch, Jordy and Sky were healthy, but those are the breaks of the game.

The bullpen has been and will most likely continue to be problematic. That's a real shame after how reliable they were last year, but I suppose that shows the volatility of that aspect of the game (?).

Pirates relievers are demonstrating exactly why I've always said that you never give anything of value for a relief pitcher. They are fungible. In any given year, they can be great or they can be horrible, and there is no way to predict which you're going to get. When you find a guy who has a great year, you should always consider trading him in the following offseason if you can get something other than a reliever in return. The best way to build a bullpen is by having a good rotation that has as many guys who can get near seven innings a start as you can find.

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:37 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I must respectfully disagree about the offense. This offense has failed time and time again in the clutch. how many times have we had runners in scoring position with nobody out and get nothing? Many. Metrics and numbers guys can disagree but I watch every game and this lack of clutch hitting has killed the Bucs all year. How many times have we gotten several runs like last night only to not score again the whole game? Way too frequently. We have a starter on the ropes and continually let them dance through the rain drops and turn the game around. This, IMHO, is a case where the numbers don't tell the real story. 8-) 8-) 8-)

I don't know how you can be convinced, then. They hit with runners on. They hit with runners in scoring position. They hit with runners in scoring position with two outs. They rank no lower than sixth in the league in any of those situations. They hit late in close games. They hit a bit better when they're behind than when they're ahead. There is no way that a team can suck in the clutch, yet produce good numbers in every single stat that measures hitting in clutch situations. I think that the problem is that the times they fail and go on to lose stick in the mind, and, let's face it, hitters are going to fail in the clutch almost 75% of the time no matter who they are.

As to the way their run scoring seems to be clumped together in few innings, that's baseball. If we agreed before the season that you would give me a dollar every time a winning team scores more runs in one inning than the losing team does in the entire game, and I would give you a dollar when that doesn't happen, I'd have a lot of your money at the end of the season. I know that was a fact through the entire history of baseball up to about 25 years ago when I read the study about it, and I don't see any reason to think it's any different today.

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:07 pm 
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I cannot be convinced by the numbers. My eyes have seen them fail far too many times WHEN IT MATTERS. That is what clutch hitting is. JMHO….IF the RBI is a worthless stat then many of these others are too….. 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:48 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I must respectfully disagree about the offense. This offense has failed time and time again in the clutch. how many times have we had runners in scoring position with nobody out and get nothing? Many. Metrics and numbers guys can disagree but I watch every game and this lack of clutch hitting has killed the Bucs all year. How many times have we gotten several runs like last night only to not score again the whole game? Way too frequently. We have a starter on the ropes and continually let them dance through the rain drops and turn the game around. This, IMHO, is a case where the numbers don't tell the real story. 8-) 8-) 8-)


Agreed to an extent.

Hasn't this offense had injuries all year? Have Cutch, GP, Martin, Marte and Sky played in the same lineup much?

It feels like one or more of those guys has been injured at different points of the season, which led to others picking up slack (to include Josh Harrison).

Overall this offense doesn't 'feel clutch', but part of that may be because the lineup has been patched up at various times. No GP, no 'true leadoff' spark plug. Martin/Marte go down, fill in player X/Y. Cutch/Sky go down, the same.

At full health this lineup would appear, at least on paper, to be able to score at a reasonable clip. If Pedro/Ike ever got their shit together...

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:56 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Pirates relievers are demonstrating exactly why I've always said that you never give anything of value for a relief pitcher. They are fungible. In any given year, they can be great or they can be horrible, and there is no way to predict which you're going to get. When you find a guy who has a great year, you should always consider trading him in the following offseason if you can get something other than a reliever in return. The best way to build a bullpen is by having a good rotation that has as many guys who can get near seven innings a start as you can find.


Mostly agreed.

Occasionally you have or land a guy who goes on a nice little two-to-three year run. Shark is a good example of this (as was Grill, until this year). Aside from that lone AL/BOS year he's been solid to 'great' for three of the last four years. Even Hanrahan had a decent enough run. At least then the FO tried to get something in return at near-peak value.

For guys like Hughes, Mazzaro, etc. (Evan Meek!) though, agreed to the fullest. When a team is lucky enough to 'catch lightning in a bottle', don't try and patent a formula. Sell it off! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:04 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
The Pirates are fifth in the league in batting average with RISP. They are fourth in the league in OPS with RISP. They're third in the league in runs scored. Whatever problems they might have, scoring runs in not among them. It's pitching, pitching, pitching.


What did you say Sisy? Are you watching this game against the Nats?

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:17 pm 
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Pirates FAILED to ADD ON with RISP and now they trail the Nats 4-2 in the 7th inning... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:21 pm 
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That isn't even Major League Baseball. If I was Hughes I'd have walked over to both of them and punched them in the face. Pedro is a mess and Ike Davis is absolutely useless...even though someone will come here and dispute that!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:21 pm 
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I'll say one thing...the Pirates are LOSING as a team...plenty of blame to go around...all the Pirates are contributing...negatively that is... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:29 pm 
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Look, the offense could have added insurance runs, but if the infield doesn't implode when Hughes did his F'ING job and induced two ground balls then we're probably not having this conversation.

Don't let a recent example skew your opinion on the matter. No team is so brilliant RISP every time; it's always about the bigger picture and the Pirates are fine there.

Their corner IF defense and bullpen however... yeesh!

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:33 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I cannot be convinced by the numbers. My eyes have seen them fail far too many times WHEN IT MATTERS. That is what clutch hitting is. JMHO….IF the RBI is a worthless stat then many of these others are too….. 8-) 8-) 8-)

Every stat that I listed measure performance when it matters.

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:35 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
I must respectfully disagree about the offense. This offense has failed time and time again in the clutch. how many times have we had runners in scoring position with nobody out and get nothing? Many. Metrics and numbers guys can disagree but I watch every game and this lack of clutch hitting has killed the Bucs all year. How many times have we gotten several runs like last night only to not score again the whole game? Way too frequently. We have a starter on the ropes and continually let them dance through the rain drops and turn the game around. This, IMHO, is a case where the numbers don't tell the real story. 8-) 8-) 8-)


Agreed to an extent.

Hasn't this offense had injuries all year? Have Cutch, GP, Martin, Marte and Sky played in the same lineup much?

It feels like one or more of those guys has been injured at different points of the season, which led to others picking up slack (to include Josh Harrison).

Overall this offense doesn't 'feel clutch', but part of that may be because the lineup has been patched up at various times. No GP, no 'true leadoff' spark plug. Martin/Marte go down, fill in player X/Y. Cutch/Sky go down, the same.

At full health this lineup would appear, at least on paper, to be able to score at a reasonable clip. If Pedro/Ike ever got their shit together...

This offense leads the league in run scoring in August, same as it did in July. Injuries, mental blocks and all.

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:36 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Pirates relievers are demonstrating exactly why I've always said that you never give anything of value for a relief pitcher. They are fungible. In any given year, they can be great or they can be horrible, and there is no way to predict which you're going to get. When you find a guy who has a great year, you should always consider trading him in the following offseason if you can get something other than a reliever in return. The best way to build a bullpen is by having a good rotation that has as many guys who can get near seven innings a start as you can find.


Mostly agreed.

Occasionally you have or land a guy who goes on a nice little two-to-three year run. Shark is a good example of this (as was Grill, until this year). Aside from that lone AL/BOS year he's been solid to 'great' for three of the last four years. Even Hanrahan had a decent enough run. At least then the FO tried to get something in return at near-peak value.

For guys like Hughes, Mazzaro, etc. (Evan Meek!) though, agreed to the fullest. When a team is lucky enough to 'catch lightning in a bottle', don't try and patent a formula. Sell it off! :D

Oh, absolutely, you need a guy who will go on a little run. Problem is, how do you know which guy is the one? It's a crapshoot.

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 Post subject: Re: Bullpen and Offense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:39 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
This offense leads the league in run scoring in August, same as it did in July. Injuries, mental blocks and all.


Right. I've been thinking/saying all year that at full strength this offense is (or has the potential to be) top-notch. As you note, the stats support it.

There have been times that the Bucs fail RISP, specifically with <2 outs, but that may be selective memory or a product of incomplete lineup (among other factors, such as 'bad timing'---it's hard for the bottom of this lineup to produce runs).

It's not fair to outright discredit the doubters when there are examples simply because of 'stats'. I'm willing to believe that the truth lies in between the extremes.

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