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 Post subject: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:29 pm 
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,491644,00.html

As much as I hate Bonds, part of me sees this as Selig trying to distance himself from the Steroids era, one that he turned a blind eye towards during baseballs "depression."

I would like to see all records returned, but I not sure how fair that would be.


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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:09 pm 
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Selig's just making noise. He really doesnt know what to say at this point. But nothings gonna happen to Arod, and Selig will end up saying he wont punish him because he wont want to inhibit other users from coming forward and telling the truth, which is in the game's interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:16 pm 
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Bud Selig is a joke. You can not erase the records. He will go down as the leader who had no back bone on his watch as commish to put a clamp on roids. Football players are on roids. The nose tackle for the Chargers was caught, suspended for 4 games..no big deal. A-Rod's so called confidential test is leaked and its like the end of the world. Is something wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:21 pm 
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estrago wrote:
Bud Selig is a joke. You can not erase the records. He will go down as the leader who had no back bone on his watch as commish to put a clamp on roids. Football players are on roids. The nose tackle for the Chargers was caught, suspended for 4 games..no big deal. A-Rod's so called confidential test is leaked and its like the end of the world. Is something wrong?


There is something wrong estrago, Selig used those guys McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, to get people interested in baseball again and as soon as all the fans were back and steroid questions arose, Selig jumped to the hard-line. You always have to be wary about the guy who takes the most hard-lined approach to an embarrasing situation.

Again, please don't misinterpret me in thinking that I support these guys cheating because I don't. Steroids are an "illegal substance," which entails that it doesn't have to be mentioned by MLB as a "banned" substance because being that it is deem illegal by the Government, then by default its illegal in baseball. (I could be wrong)


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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:55 pm 
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What I meant by is something wrong is that it seems like baseball gets more negative press than does football. Even though the NFL clamped down sooner on roids, roid use still goes on.

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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:13 pm 
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Selig is a joke. He doesn't have a clue what to do. Wants to ignore Bonds? What Happens when Arod passes up the Hammer?
He wants to suspend Arod? If he does, what about the 103 others who were caught before the penelty phase came into effect?

Baseball has screwed this up about as bad as possible. The reason the press beats on them is because they are such a joke and can't or won't act definitively on anything.

Ty Cobb is in? Pete Rose is out? Shoeless Joe is out? Gaylord is in?

Big Mac is out? Palimero is out? Is Bonds out? Is Arod out? Why not just stop having a hall or for that matter keeping records. This baseball stuff started with the Maris Astarisk and hasn't yet ended.

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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:20 pm 
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Baseball is too hung up on numbers and records...you never hear the NFL making up things to discredit running backs setting records like the difference between 14 and 16 game schedules...They acknowledge the record is broken and move on from there and say how each player was great during his era...

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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:17 am 
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One caveat to the "steroids are deemed illegal by Government" thing is that they are illegal in the U.S. Not in the home countries of many of the players who could've went home and cycled throughout the offseason and come back having done nothing "illegal".

Great point in this discussion about the NFL. 2 of the guys who've been finalists for defensive player of the year have tested positive. Shawne Merriman and Julius Peppers both got caught, but few eyebrows were raised when it happened.


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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:43 am 
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Quote:
One caveat to the "steroids are deemed illegal by Government" thing is that they are illegal in the U.S. Not in the home countries of many of the players who could've went home and cycled throughout the offseason and come back having done nothing "illegal".


Good point.


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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:12 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
There is something wrong estrago, Selig used those guys McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, to get people interested in baseball again and as soon as all the fans were back and steroid questions arose, Selig jumped to the hard-line.


Again, MLB tried to implement a drug testing policy in 1993. The players and their union stood together and said "no way." I continue to be baffled at why Donald Fehr flies under the radar on this.

I distinctly remember a story about Kris Benson showing up to Spring Training and being far more "cut" than he had ever been. I wondered if he was on some sort of PED at the time. If McClatchy or McClendon thought that Benson was "juicing," what could they have done at the time? Sit Benson down and ask him? Initiate a criminal investigation? File charges with MLB? Force him to pee in a cup or give blood?

The questions are serious. What exactly could be done and, when those actions were taken, how many hours (not days) would it be before Fehr et al filed a grievance under the collective bargaining agreement?

There is a reason that Selig, Fehr and players were all called before Congress. They all share culpability.

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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:34 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Selig is a joke. He doesn't have a clue what to do. Wants to ignore Bonds? What Happens when Arod passes up the Hammer?
He wants to suspend Arod? If he does, what about the 103 others who were caught before the penelty phase came into effect?

Baseball has screwed this up about as bad as possible. The reason the press beats on them is because they are such a joke and can't or won't act definitively on anything.

Ty Cobb is in? Pete Rose is out? Shoeless Joe is out? Gaylord is in?

Big Mac is out? Palimero is out? Is Bonds out? Is Arod out? Why not just stop having a hall or for that matter keeping records. This baseball stuff started with the Maris Astarisk and hasn't yet ended.



Andro isn't the reason Big Mac is out.


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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:09 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
There is something wrong estrago, Selig used those guys McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, to get people interested in baseball again and as soon as all the fans were back and steroid questions arose, Selig jumped to the hard-line.


Again, MLB tried to implement a drug testing policy in 1993. The players and their union stood together and said "no way." I continue to be baffled at why Donald Fehr flies under the radar on this.

I distinctly remember a story about Kris Benson showing up to Spring Training and being far more "cut" than he had ever been. I wondered if he was on some sort of PED at the time. If McClatchy or McClendon thought that Benson was "juicing," what could they have done at the time? Sit Benson down and ask him? Initiate a criminal investigation? File charges with MLB? Force him to pee in a cup or give blood?

The questions are serious. What exactly could be done and, when those actions were taken, how many hours (not days) would it be before Fehr et al filed a grievance under the collective bargaining agreement?

There is a reason that Selig, Fehr and players were all called before Congress. They all share culpability.


Smizik had a blog yesterday about getting rid of Feher and Selig...

http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs ... r-bud.aspx

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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:22 pm 
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As usual, Im confused. Why would it only fall to Selig to punish Arod for breaking a federal law? Why wouldnt our law enforcement agencies be more interested in this admission? (Willton? Anybody?)


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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:20 pm 
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Resetting the records isn't a good idea or a "fix-all". It's like a dead beat, cheating, abusive dad thinking he's clear just because he got an anullment.

The inflated records are-- for better or worse-- baseball's stigma. It has to live with them, as penance for ignoring the problem. While suspicions of steroids have existed since the 80's, Bud Selig was more concerned about fixing that awful problem of a tie in the All-Star Game.

You can't wipe it clean and get a fresh start. You made your bed, now lie in it.

But someone could argue: "well, that devalues the purity of the game and nobody will ever be able to break these records". However, you could also argue that having these tainted records could possibly inspire future players to work harder and do it "the right way". I know... such an outlandish idea.

Besides, let's say you DO set about erasing all steroid homeruns from the record books. Using Bonds as an example, you'd have to go back and wipe out all of his offensive numbers.

Well, what if those numbers actually helped win a game or inflated someone's ERA unfairly? Okay...let's adjust those too.

Well, whattabout standings? I mean, Barry Bonds' homeruns, when mapped out, helped the Giants win an additional 10 games in the 2002 season (total estimate, just for the sake of argument). Well, the Dodgers finished 3.5 games behind the Giants in the Wildcard race, that year. Umm...shouldn't the Dodgers retroactively be cited as the Wildcard winner, now (or eventual NL Champ)?

Whattabout that pitcher whose ERA was unfairly inflated by a McGwire, Palmeiro or Bonds? Hmm, checking stats, he might've won the Cy Young that year. He could call his agent and sue someone for greivances and an unfair working condition. "Due to steroids, my client was unable to attain substantial financial compensation for his efforts".

In short, it could be a statistician's nightmare to simply "erase" any numbers.

Once again, MLB and Bud Selig made this mess. They'll have to live with it. We, as fans, had to live with it..and we can't go back and give ourselves a lobotomy to pretend we didn't follow or cheer for these 'roid clowns. This is reality-- not DC Comics-- you can't simply erase everything with a "Crisis retcon".

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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:43 pm 
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Nobody needs to see an asterisk, no records need to be fixed. Neither Selig or anyone else can influence how this moment in time is viewed. This era has simply and already been tainted in its own way. History and the fans will take care of what Selig cant and wont.


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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:51 pm 
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Well, let's see. We know when the era started to some great degree, and we know the end, to some degree.

We have a huge data set of HR's, Doubles, K's, RBI's, etc. Should be possible to calculate a predicted performance stat for each major phase based on historical BB in the modern era, and come up with a correction factor. Heck you can even use the Pre-Barry and Post-Barry numbers as a baseline!

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:51 pm 
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I keep coming back to the 103 other yet to be named players who tested positive with Arod. What of them? Did they break the law too? Are any of them All-Stars? Do they look to set or break any records?
Are you guys willing to hang Arod and let these guys go unpunished? Why?

Ideas? Could we take their eldest male child and....?

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:02 pm 
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Now we have the problem of Clemens and others who were in the league in the pre-Bonds days and in his era. Do you count his 1984-1987 numbers and exclude the rest? And what impact did pitchers who were juicing have on clean players or on roid guys? Does a pitchers juice trump a players juice?

Where's Budd when you need him?

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:08 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
I keep coming back to the 103 other yet to be named players who tested positive with Arod. What of them? Did they break the law too? Are any of them All-Stars? Do they look to set or break any records?
Are you guys willing to hang Arod and let these guys go unpunished? Why?


Im not trying to ignore the others but, again, who are they? Arods receiving the attention now because hes been nailed. Prior to the SI story, he was enjoying the same anonymity as the rest of the Dirty 100. And I would love to see the rest of them revealed.

But more important, Sub, who exactly is hanging Arod? I see alot of huffin and puffin going on, but nothings gonna happen to him short of reputation damage. No gettin around that, and it was self-imposed. Actually, Bonds, Clemens, Tejada, theyre getting alot more "punishment" than Arod is or will, dont you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Selig to reset records
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:22 am 
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Kingston wrote:
As usual, Im confused. Why would it only fall to Selig to punish Arod for breaking a federal law? Why wouldnt our law enforcement agencies be more interested in this admission? (Willton? Anybody?)

It could be for any number of reasons: (1) the DOJ likely doesn't think it can prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt; (2) the statute of limitations on such an offense may have run; (3) the DOJ may think it can find more worthwhile uses of its time than prosecuting baseball professionals for harming themselves; or (4) a reason I have not conceived yet.

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