Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:54 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 262 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:59 am 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2247
Location: Naples, FL
The Astros with Springer/Nix/et al is a failure managing people that could have future implications.

The more I think about it, I'm with sisyphus. You think some kid is going to look at the Rays and say "man, if I turn into David Price, I may not get to choose where I spend my half-year rental season"?

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:04 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:17 pm
Posts: 2501
Location: Tejas
Big fan of the Rays' philosophy but I'd be really disappointed in them if they turned down a better return in order to cater to a player who would no longer be associated with them. That's just dumb.

_________________
Moneyball Saves.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4240
Location: Zelienople, PA
StarlingArcher wrote:
Big fan of the Rays' philosophy but I'd be really disappointed in them if they turned down a better return in order to cater to a player who would no longer be associated with them. That's just dumb.


I find this and related posts a strawman argument. It isn't about "better" per se. It is about all things being pretty much equal... then you defer a bit to the player. Pirates did it this year with Dickerson. That said, it looks like the Rays were not in the picture for prospects as in the past. They seem to be looking at the Dave Littlefieldish MLB ready type players so that they can maintain their standing rather than rebuild. The Bucs did not have an equal offer if that was the case. They simply don't have the MLB ready but not quite types yet. Those are on the roster and are not going to be moved. And, the next wave is in AA.

I also wonder if the Rays have monetary issues that they are/were hiding until the very end forced them into a ARam type deal.

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
ZelieMike wrote:
StarlingArcher wrote:
Big fan of the Rays' philosophy but I'd be really disappointed in them if they turned down a better return in order to cater to a player who would no longer be associated with them. That's just dumb.


I find this and related posts a strawman argument. It isn't about "better" per se. It is about all things being pretty much equal... then you defer a bit to the player. Pirates did it this year with Dickerson. That said, it looks like the Rays were not in the picture for prospects as in the past. They seem to be looking at the Dave Littlefieldish MLB ready type players so that they can maintain their standing rather than rebuild. The Bucs did not have an equal offer if that was the case. They simply don't have the MLB ready but not quite types yet. Those are on the roster and are not going to be moved. And, the next wave is in AA.

I also wonder if the Rays have monetary issues that they are/were hiding until the very end forced them into a ARam type deal.

ZM

The Pirates deferred to Dickerson because he had an out clause in his contract similar to the one that netted them Grilli. I might be mis-remembering, but I believe that the cutoff date was July 15th. Their choices were to trade him for a bag of balls, or watch him leave for nothing.

It's a different issue entirely if you have multiple offers that are pretty much equal, but I don't think that applies here. The Rays took the offer than gives them the best shot to compete next year. The help the Pirates were offering had to be more of a long term thing. So even if the relative values were exactly the same when you added it all up, the Pirates still lose out due to the nature of what they had to offer, not because of the quality of it.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:46 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:17 pm
Posts: 2501
Location: Tejas
Fangraphs' take on the trade deadline.

As you'd expect, it pisses on the old belief that Championships are won and lost via trades at the deadline. The biggest changes in playoff odds were related to wins and losses last night, not player additions/subtractions.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-change-in-postseason-odds-from-yesterday/

_________________
Moneyball Saves.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:54 pm
Posts: 6215
Location: Keystone State
Pirates offered Rays a better deal that included prospects. Rays said no.

http://www.raysindex.com/2014/08/rays-david-price-pirates.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RaysIndex+%28Rays+Index%29

_________________
The Bucs are going all the way, all the way this year!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:27 pm
Posts: 2149
All I can say to that is, thanks Tampa Bay.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:00 am
Posts: 3138
bucco boy wrote:
Pirates offered Rays a better deal that included prospects. Rays said no.


This is the type of stuff that really annoys me re: the "no deal is a total failure and simply means the GM didn't try hard enough" detractors.

Similar things happened when the Pirates made a legitimate offer for Stanton that surprised Miami's FO, and the Pirates offered more money to Edwin Jackson when he was one of the better SPs on the FA market a few off-seasons ago, but he took a discounted rate to sign w/ Washington.

Trades and acquisitions aren't one-sided.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
StarlingArcher wrote:
Fangraphs' take on the trade deadline.

As you'd expect, it pisses on the old belief that Championships are won and lost via trades at the deadline. The biggest changes in playoff odds were related to wins and losses last night, not player additions/subtractions.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-change-in-postseason-odds-from-yesterday/

Actually this overemphasis on the trade deadline is a relatively recent development. Back when a lot of people were still watching black and white TVs, the trade deadline was June 15th. I can't remember what year they changed it, but it wasn't all that long ago, and the deadline media feeding frenzy didn't start right away, it took some years before that happened.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:51 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 44
StarlingArcher wrote:
Fangraphs' take on the trade deadline.

As you'd expect, it pisses on the old belief that Championships are won and lost via trades at the deadline. The biggest changes in playoff odds were related to wins and losses last night, not player additions/subtractions.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-change-in-postseason-odds-from-yesterday/

This is awesome! Everytime I get into an argument about trades, I take the position that trading away prospects for rental studs doesn't improve your odds to win this year nearly as much as everyone thinks it does. Now I have stats, no doubt imperfect, to back that up.

BP estimated each team's chances to win the WS before and after the trade deadline (link), and they claim that the team most positively affected was Oakland, who went up one percentage point to 15.2% of winning the world series.

Is a 1% improvement in this year's team worth trading away prospects? Well, it depends. To really evaluate this, you'd need to compute the total expected world series's won over the future, which is obviously extremely hard to do with any accuracy.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:38 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 3656
Location: Economy, PA
There is this extreme media bias towards the team that trades prospects for veterans. Its because they want a story to report. In their mind, the team that got the veterans got better, and did something positive. The teams that did nothing are losers, and actually did something negative.

In reality, the teams that got veterans got better in the short term, worse in the long term. Generally speaking.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:57 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 498
When we were bad, the trade deadline was the last significant part of the season that held any interest. I always enjoyed seeing what prospects we got in those deals (from Andy LaRoche to Josh Harrison.). Now I cringe and hope we don't give up too much this time of year.

BTW, I see Dilson Herrera is having quite a season at AA at around .340 with .970 ops in 180 ab's in age 20 season. And Vic Black has a 1.80 ERA with the Mets out of their bullpen in 29 appearances. The Marlon Byrd trade was generally considered a positive one for Pirates but we may look back at that one with a different opinion in a few years...especially if Neil Walker leaves.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:25 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:42 pm
Posts: 915
Jack Round Tripper wrote:
When we were bad, the trade deadline was the last significant part of the season that held any interest. I always enjoyed seeing what prospects we got in those deals (from Andy LaRoche to Josh Harrison.). Now I cringe and hope we don't give up too much this time of year.

BTW, I see Dilson Herrera is having quite a season at AA at around .340 with .970 ops in 180 ab's in age 20 season. And Vic Black has a 1.80 ERA with the Mets out of their bullpen in 29 appearances. The Marlon Byrd trade was generally considered a positive one for Pirates but we may look back at that one with a different opinion in a few years...especially if Neil Walker leaves.


Except that without Byrd we probably don't make the playoffs.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:25 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 925
Location: Rochester, New York
Jack Round Tripper wrote:
When we were bad, the trade deadline was the last significant part of the season that held any interest. I always enjoyed seeing what prospects we got in those deals (from Andy LaRoche to Josh Harrison.). Now I cringe and hope we don't give up too much this time of year.

BTW, I see Dilson Herrera is having quite a season at AA at around .340 with .970 ops in 180 ab's in age 20 season. And Vic Black has a 1.80 ERA with the Mets out of their bullpen in 29 appearances. The Marlon Byrd trade was generally considered a positive one for Pirates but we may look back at that one with a different opinion in a few years...especially if Neil Walker leaves.


Black would have been nice to have this year, though I generally don't care too much about RP being moved. Good for Herrera making the jump to AA look easy so far. I guess we have to hope that Hanson becomes a better player than him now.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:46 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:00 am
Posts: 3138
Jack Round Tripper wrote:
BTW, I see Dilson Herrera is having quite a season at AA at around .340 with .970 ops in 180 ab's in age 20 season. And Vic Black has a 1.80 ERA with the Mets out of their bullpen in 29 appearances. The Marlon Byrd trade was generally considered a positive one for Pirates but we may look back at that one with a different opinion in a few years...especially if Neil Walker leaves.


I went on record at the time of the trade that I thought it was a bit of an overpay, I liked both prospects a lot, especially after getting to see Herrera in person at WV. Subsequently, Byrd performed better than anticipated, too. But I'd be a little weary of those Herrera numbers. His SLG% is about 150 points higher than his career average, this coming at the most challenging level jump in the minors (AA). He is tiny in person, perhaps the shortest pro player I've ever witnessed. Despite the size, he does not have the speed of someone like Hanson or Polanco because he has a rounder build. I'm assuming the recent power surge might be an aberration. If I'm wrong, good for him, like I said I was always a fan and like the tools overall. I agree with your overall point.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:48 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:17 pm
Posts: 2501
Location: Tejas
Jack Round Tripper wrote:

BTW, I see Dilson Herrera is having quite a season at AA at around .340 with .970 ops in 180 ab's in age 20 season. And Vic Black has a 1.80 ERA with the Mets out of their bullpen in 29 appearances. The Marlon Byrd trade was generally considered a positive one for Pirates but we may look back at that one with a different opinion in a few years...especially if Neil Walker leaves.


From what I can remember I think the general consensus was that we had lost out from a talent perspective but it was understandable given the context.

Still, overpaying in a consistent basis is a terrible way to manage a small market team and I'm glad they didn't repeat it this year. They ended the drought and showed they were serious (they already had but that should've been the final nakl), now keep building.

_________________
Moneyball Saves.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:36 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 44
StarlingArcher wrote:
Still, overpaying in a consistent basis is a terrible way to manage a small market team and I'm glad they didn't repeat it this year. They ended the drought and showed they were serious (they already had but that should've been the final nakl), now keep building.

You'd think so, but the vitriole on talk shows has been insane. People are literally accusing the Pirates of lying, and being frauds, because they didn't "go all in" this year. I wonder what those folks think a Lester trade would do for the Pirates' chances of winning the world series.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
Jack Round Tripper wrote:
When we were bad, the trade deadline was the last significant part of the season that held any interest. I always enjoyed seeing what prospects we got in those deals (from Andy LaRoche to Josh Harrison.). Now I cringe and hope we don't give up too much this time of year.

BTW, I see Dilson Herrera is having quite a season at AA at around .340 with .970 ops in 180 ab's in age 20 season. And Vic Black has a 1.80 ERA with the Mets out of their bullpen in 29 appearances. The Marlon Byrd trade was generally considered a positive one for Pirates but we may look back at that one with a different opinion in a few years...especially if Neil Walker leaves.

I have to say that the Byrd trade was the right thing to do at the time, but the Mets did very well to get what they did. The Pirates needed Byrd and they paid a lot for him, but I don't think that they overpaid.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5444
Location: Pittsburgh
rellimie wrote:
Jack Round Tripper wrote:
When we were bad, the trade deadline was the last significant part of the season that held any interest. I always enjoyed seeing what prospects we got in those deals (from Andy LaRoche to Josh Harrison.). Now I cringe and hope we don't give up too much this time of year.

BTW, I see Dilson Herrera is having quite a season at AA at around .340 with .970 ops in 180 ab's in age 20 season. And Vic Black has a 1.80 ERA with the Mets out of their bullpen in 29 appearances. The Marlon Byrd trade was generally considered a positive one for Pirates but we may look back at that one with a different opinion in a few years...especially if Neil Walker leaves.


Except that without Byrd we probably don't make the playoffs.

The Pirates had a better winning percentage without Byrd than they did with him.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Official Trade Deadline Thread (2014)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7275
It looks like Zobrist was in on the Tampa-Pittsburgh trade...

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/rays-zobri ... --mlb.html

Quote:
Ben Zobrist of the Tampa Bay Rays slept right through Thursday's rumor that he had been traded to the Pittsburgh Pirates.

''I was napping, to be honest,'' Zobrist said Friday of a fake tweet that had briefly turned into television news the previous day. ''I didn't see any of it. My wife texted me. She said: 'Hey, I'm getting texts from people saying that we got traded.' So I started looking around the internet to see if I could find anything, and at that point everything had already been taken off.''

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 262 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits