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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:44 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I disagree. As long as the team has a chance to contend -- and it does at this point -- I think management has an obligation to make this team as good as possible. I wouldn't go dealing Pearce or McCutchen, but you might find someone on the waiver wire or be able to pull of a Yates-like deal (one that doesn't involving giving up much) to get yourself another option behind the plate.

Who do you suggest they target, and what minor leaguer should they offer for him?

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A situation that sees Paulino not having to compete with anyone didn't work last year. It would be foolish to expect different results from the same situation this year.

Who was Paulino competing with when he hit .300 in 2006? If you recall, Doumit spent the better part of three months on the DL that year, and was limited to pinch hitting for much of time he was active.


In 06 he was a rookie trying to prove himself. I think that was motivation enough. It was once he "succeeded" that he turned into joggin Ronnie.

You think he can't wait to get back to the bench?

Who do you suggest they target, and what should they give up to get him?

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:54 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
You think he can't wait to get back to the bench?


I'm not saying that at all. I just don't like banking on a guy like Paulino if Doumit is out for an extended period of time.

sisyphus wrote:
Who do you suggest they target, and what should they give up to get him?

[/quote]

I'm not going to throw out specific names bc that proves to be nothing but a dart target on this board. But I'm saying if NH got Yates for a song, I think he could do the same kind of thing with a catcher.

Why would you be opposed to having more options behind the plate (again, all assuming Doumit is out for an extended period of time).


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:00 pm 
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You wont name any because there arent any out there worth picking up

Backup catchers are a dime a dozen and wont do anything more than what Chavez will do...

Going and trying to trade for one or pick one up isnt wise...Chavez will be alright in the backup role

plus, if you got another catcher, what happens when Doumit comes back in a few weeks?
Now you got 3 catchers taking up space on the roster...

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:12 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
You think he can't wait to get back to the bench?


I'm not saying that at all. I just don't like banking on a guy like Paulino if Doumit is out for an extended period of time.

Maybe you are now, but that isn't what you were saying before. You were saying that Paulino won't produce unless pushed, and you said it several times. Paulino is playing for a chance to be a starter. Motivation doesn't come any better than that.

Elmer wrote:
I'm not going to throw out specific names bc that proves to be nothing but a dart target on this board. But I'm saying if NH got Yates for a song, I think he could do the same kind of thing with a catcher.

Just what I expected to hear. It doesn't leave your argument with much credibility if you refuse to back it up. But it sure does let you criticize management no matter what happens, doesn't it?

Elmer wrote:
Why would you be opposed to having more options behind the plate (again, all assuming Doumit is out for an extended period of time).

I'm not. I'm opposed to giving up anything of value to add another catcher. If we get news tomorrow that Doumit's hand had to be amputated and Paulino breaks his leg, then I'll modify my position. Short of that, I'll stick with Paulino. Chavez won't get enough playing time to make any difference, and he's just like most backup catchers. Good defense, strong arm, no bat.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:13 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
You wont name any because there arent any out there worth picking up

Backup catchers are a dime a dozen and wont do anything more than what Chavez will do...

Going and trying to trade for one or pick one up isnt wise...Chavez will be alright in the backup role

plus, if you got another catcher, what happens when Doumit comes back in a few weeks?
Now you got 3 catchers taking up space on the roster...

Not only that, but you also no longer have whatever you gave up to get your third string catcher.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:45 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
You think he can't wait to get back to the bench?


I'm not saying that at all. I just don't like banking on a guy like Paulino if Doumit is out for an extended period of time.

Maybe you are now, but that isn't what you were saying before. You were saying that Paulino won't produce unless pushed, and you said it several times. Paulino is playing for a chance to be a starter. Motivation doesn't come any better than that.

Elmer wrote:
I'm not going to throw out specific names bc that proves to be nothing but a dart target on this board. But I'm saying if NH got Yates for a song, I think he could do the same kind of thing with a catcher.

Just what I expected to hear. It doesn't leave your argument with much credibility if you refuse to back it up. But it sure does let you criticize management no matter what happens, doesn't it?

Elmer wrote:
Why would you be opposed to having more options behind the plate (again, all assuming Doumit is out for an extended period of time).

I'm not. I'm opposed to giving up anything of value to add another catcher. If we get news tomorrow that Doumit's hand had to be amputated and Paulino breaks his leg, then I'll modify my position. Short of that, I'll stick with Paulino. Chavez won't get enough playing time to make any difference, and he's just like most backup catchers. Good defense, strong arm, no bat.


I did say Paulino LIKELY won't produce unless pushed, so I want to add another option should Doumit be out a while. What's wrong with that? It's not contradictory.

There are approximately 120 catchers in MLB and AAA. You're trying to say there's not anyone out there who can be got for cheap better than Chavez (for the 175th time, if Doumit is out for a long time)? Why would I post names, so you can rip anyone I say? I Know how you work.

You avoided my Yates question. If NH can do that again but at the catcher position, you would be opposed to that?

Options. The Pirates need options so they don't have to rely on Paulino.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:38 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I did say Paulino LIKELY won't produce unless pushed, so I want to add another option should Doumit be out a while. What's wrong with that? It's not contradictory.

There are approximately 120 catchers in MLB and AAA. You're trying to say there's not anyone out there who can be got for cheap better than Chavez (for the 175th time, if Doumit is out for a long time)?


First of all, eliminate all the catchers who are major league starters from your list. You won't be getting any of them cheap. You won't be getting any major league backup catchers cheap either, unless they're some other teams catch and throw guy who can't hit. We already have a catch and throw guy who can't hit named Chavez. That leaves AAA. Scratch all the catchers who are all true prospects from your list. They won't come cheap. You know what's left? A whole bunch of guys named Chavez, Maldonado, or Cota.

Besides, I'm forced to assume that there aren't any such guys out there, since you can't name any.

Quote:
Why would I post names, so you can rip anyone I say? I Know how you work.


LOL. You can't post names because there are none. None that could be had on the cheap, but are significantly better than what we already have. Or good enough to threaten Paulino, anyway.

Quote:
You avoided my Yates question. If NH can do that again but at the catcher position, you would be opposed to that?


In this particular case, yes, I am opposed to that, primarily because it isn't possible. Yates was available for a low price because he didn't make the team in Atlanta and he was out of options. They were going to lose him on waivers, so they were willing to part with him for little in return. I'm also opposed to it because Doumit will eventually be back, leaving us with three catchers, two of whom you think are worth little in a trade. I'm assuming that you think that Paulino is worth little in a trade. If you don't, then how do you suppose that some nearly worthless catcher is going to push him?

By the way, you'd better take a closer look at the way Yates is pitching. His ERA is fine, but it won't be for long if he keeps walking almost one batter per inning. If he doesn't turn things around, then the Pirates gave up too much for him.

Quote:
Options. The Pirates need options so they don't have to rely on Paulino.

They do have an option. His name is Chavez. He is exactly the sort of catcher that the Pirates can pick up on the cheap. I know that this might create a firestorm, and I've complained about Paulino plenty of times, but Ronnie Paulino is far from being the worst starting catcher in the Major Leagues. Look around at other teams, for goodness sake.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:02 pm 
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Yes the Pirates could use options at catcher with Doumit out a month, but I hope they don't give up much for one. If Paulino tanks, I would be in favor of grabbing someone from waivers. I agree a Yates-like trade would be nice, but I think that was a great move by NH - those trades aren't easy to come by.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I agree and hope they do just not at a high cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:26 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I did say Paulino LIKELY won't produce unless pushed, so I want to add another option should Doumit be out a while. What's wrong with that? It's not contradictory.

What's wrong is that you are assuming that Paulino is not being pushed. This is his opportunity to take back the starting job. I'd say that's a pretty significant push.

Elmer wrote:
There are approximately 120 catchers in MLB and AAA. You're trying to say there's not anyone out there who can be got for cheap better than Chavez (for the 175th time, if Doumit is out for a long time)? Why would I post names, so you can rip anyone I say? I Know how you work.

Coward. You're afraid of meeting the challenge because you're afraid of being criticized. It's a little satisfying to hear you say it yourself.

Elmer wrote:
You avoided my Yates question. If NH can do that again but at the catcher position, you would be opposed to that?

I would not be opposed to that. But the overwhelming likelihood is that trading for any backup catcher of value will cost more than the trade will return.

Elmer wrote:
Options. The Pirates need options so they don't have to rely on Paulino.

If those options are worse than Paulino, then I don't see how the options are beneficial, unless Paulino gets injured.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:11 pm 
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Mayor Mystery wrote:
Yes the Pirates could use options at catcher with Doumit out a month, but I hope they don't give up much for one. If Paulino tanks, I would be in favor of grabbing someone from waivers.

Do you really think that you can get a better catcher than Paulino off of the waiver wire? I've got news for you: if the Pirates put Paulino on waivers tomorrow, almost every team in baseball will put in a claim by Friday morning.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:13 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I'm not going to throw out specific names bc that proves to be nothing but a dart target on this board. But I'm saying if NH got Yates for a song, I think he could do the same kind of thing with a catcher.

Just what I expected to hear. It doesn't leave your argument with much credibility if you refuse to back it up. But it sure does let you criticize management no matter what happens, doesn't it?


I recall someone who claims to have knowledge about player value stating that Xavier Nady should be traded, and that the player acquired in the trade should be better than Nady since Nady is a below-average player.

Shouldn't that someone post who Nady will get in a trade? If he fails to do so, won't he be making an argument without much credibility?

Doing my best to ignore this someone, but the quote feature overrides the ignore feature.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:42 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
Willton/Econo -
I know that you don't believe in the concept of hitter protection but I firmly believe that Bautista will see better pitches to hit with McLouth in the on-deck circle and Bay in the hole. Why would any pitcher - in his right mind - give Bautista much to hit with Bixler on-deck and the pitcher in the hole?

Further, Bautista should understand that the #2 spot demands for him to become more selective. If he walks, he's got the heart of the lineup ready to knock him in.

This lineup desperately needs not only to have Sanchez keep hitting and for LaRoche to continue waking up but for Bautista to pick up the slack. He's no stranger to hitting higher in the order and he's had some previous successes up near the top.

You could make the same argument Bixler, in that he'd get more pitches to hit if he weren't batting ahead of the pitcher. Does that mean we should bat Bixler higher in the order as well?

If you want to talk about protection, shouldn't Sanchez deserve more protection than Bautista? Sanchez is the better hitter (historically, anyway), and I always thought that the idea was to protect your best hitters. If that is so, why protect Bautista at the expense of Sanchez? Bautista does not strike me as one who would provide much protection to other hitters.

I'm sure Bautista gets plenty of good pitches to hit whereever he his in the lineup, considering that pitchers probably are not afraid of him. Just because Bautista will theoretically get better pitches to hit does not mean he'll be able to do more with them. Bautista is already a patient, selective hitter, and I don't think that will change depending on where he bats in the lineup. Bautista's problem is that he's not good at making contact, and my guess is that has everything to do with Bautista and nothing to do with the hitters around him.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:18 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I'm not going to throw out specific names bc that proves to be nothing but a dart target on this board. But I'm saying if NH got Yates for a song, I think he could do the same kind of thing with a catcher.

Just what I expected to hear. It doesn't leave your argument with much credibility if you refuse to back it up. But it sure does let you criticize management no matter what happens, doesn't it?


I recall someone who claims to have knowledge about player value stating that Xavier Nady should be traded, and that the player acquired in the trade should be better than Nady since Nady is a below-average player.

Another lie from the coward. I said that Nady is a below average right fielder, not a below average player.

Quote:
Shouldn't that someone post who Nady will get in a trade? If he fails to do so, won't he be making an argument without much credibility?

Doing my best to ignore this someone, but the quote feature overrides the ignore feature.

Do you really think I'll answer questions from somebody who is ignoring me? LOL.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:22 pm 
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Sissy wrote:
Another lie from the coward. I said that Nady is a below average right fielder, not a below average player.


Genius. Baseball guru. Message board know-it-all. And internet tough guy.

Quite a resume, for a guy who lives in his mom's basement.

We all read your pompous pronouncements about Nady. Don't try to change your opinion because you have been exposed as a blow-hard pretender.

Cliff Clayven is Isaac Newton compared to you.

Bucfan wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Do you really think I'll answer questions from somebody who is ignoring me? LOL.


Sissy, sissy, sissy.

You are a total blow-hard fraud. Put up or shut up.

Actually, I think the concensus of those on the board is, please do both. Or, if you do just one, please make it the latter.

And P.S. you fraud - we are laughing at you, not with you. (LAFAS [laughing at fat-ass sissy])


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:32 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Sissy wrote:
Another lie from the coward. I said that Nady is a below average right fielder, not a below average player.


Genius. Baseball guru. Message board know-it-all. And internet tough guy.

Quite a resume, for a guy who lives in his mom's basement.

We all read your pompous pronouncements about Nady. Don't try to change your opinion because you have been exposed as a blow-hard pretender.

Cliff Clayven is Isaac Newton compared to you.

Bucfan wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Do you really think I'll answer questions from somebody who is ignoring me? LOL.


Sissy, sissy, sissy.

You are a total blow-hard fraud. Put up or shut up.

Actually, I think the concensus of those on the board is, please do both. Or, if you do just one, please make it the latter.

And P.S. you fraud - we are laughing at you, not with you. (LAFAS [laughing at fat-ass sissy])


Bucfan I love reading you slam sissy. The downside is (as you pointed out) the quote button overrides the ignore feature and, as a result, I have to read his garbage.

Why are you arguing with someone who is NEVER wrong???


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:36 pm 
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Mayor Mystery wrote:
Bucfan I love reading you slam sissy. The downside is (as you pointed out) the quote button overrides the ignore feature and, as a result, I have to read his garbage.


My apologies. You are correct.

I was wrong to quote the Great and Powerful Sissy.

Image
Sissy-Fraud Being an Internet Tough Guy

It won't happen again.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Sissy wrote:
Another lie from the coward. I said that Nady is a below average right fielder, not a below average player.


Genius. Baseball guru. Message board know-it-all. And internet tough guy.

Quite a resume, for a guy who lives in his mom's basement.

We all read your pompous pronouncements about Nady. Don't try to change your opinion because you have been exposed as a blow-hard pretender.

Cliff Clayven is Isaac Newton compared to you.

Feel free to go back and find the post wherein I call Nady a below average PLAYER. While you're at it, find the one in which I threaten anybody.

Bucfan wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Do you really think I'll answer questions from somebody who is ignoring me? LOL.


Sissy, sissy, sissy.

You are a total blow-hard fraud. Put up or shut up.

Actually, I think the concensus of those on the board is, please do both. Or, if you do just one, please make it the latter.

And P.S. you fraud - we are laughing at you, not with you. (LAFAS [laughing at fat-ass sissy])

I take it, then, that I am off of your ignore list?

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:58 pm 
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Both of you are acting like asinine pricks. Let it go.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:01 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Both of you are acting like asinine pricks. Let it go.

Let the coward keep it up. He looks like a bigger ass with every post now that he's moved on to one namecalling post after another.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:05 pm 
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(Insert the Theme From Rocky)...

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Bucfan vs Sisy

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