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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:31 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
But having the bottom of the lineup consist of Paulino, Bautista, SS and pitcher is U-G-L-Y against right-handers. Way too many easy innings for the opposing pitcher.


I agree with you here Bucfan. If we see this I'm sure NH does too. That's why I expect him to get another catcher in here if Doumit is out for an extended period of time.

He will bring another catcher in. He's on his way to St. Louis from Indianapolis as we speak, but I don't know his name. Probably Chavez. Dealing for another catcher would be unwise, because that means you've given up something of value so that you can be stuck with three catchers in a month or so. And if you don't give up anything of value, the guy you get probably is no better than Chavez or Maldonado.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Does any player on the Pirates see fewer pitches than Bixler??


#Pitches per Plate Appearance 2008:
Code:
Mclouth    4.27
Bay        4.25
Bautista   4.11
LaRoche    3.82
Nady       3.77
Bixler     3.62
Doumit     3.58
Sanchez    3.38


Code:
2007 Top Hitters by Pitches per PA

 Player          Team      Pitch  PA   PPA
Jayson Werth  Phillies    1,392  304  4.58
Reggie Willis Angels      2,301  518  4.44
Jack Cust     Athletics   2,232  507  4.40
Jason Botts   Rangers       833  190  4.38
Bobby Abreu   Yankees     3,060  699  4.38
Ruben Gotay   Mets          922  211  4.37
Todd Helton   Rockies     2,970  890  3.93
TDroy Glaus   Blue Jays   1,972  456  4.32
Kevin Millar  Orioles     2,429  562  4.32
Ryan Shealy   Royals        815  189  4.31
  Minimum 100 plate appearances


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:30 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
But having the bottom of the lineup consist of Paulino, Bautista, SS and pitcher is U-G-L-Y against right-handers. Way too many easy innings for the opposing pitcher.


I agree with you here Bucfan. If we see this I'm sure NH does too. That's why I expect him to get another catcher in here if Doumit is out for an extended period of time.

He will bring another catcher in. He's on his way to St. Louis from Indianapolis as we speak, but I don't know his name. Probably Chavez. Dealing for another catcher would be unwise, because that means you've given up something of value so that you can be stuck with three catchers in a month or so. And if you don't give up anything of value, the guy you get probably is no better than Chavez or Maldonado.


I disagree. As long as the team has a chance to contend -- and it does at this point -- I think management has an obligation to make this team as good as possible. I wouldn't go dealing Pearce or McCutchen, but you might find someone on the waiver wire or be able to pull of a Yates-like deal (one that doesn't involving giving up much) to get yourself another option behind the plate.

A situation that sees Paulino not having to compete with anyone didn't work last year. It would be foolish to expect different results from the same situation this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:07 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
But having the bottom of the lineup consist of Paulino, Bautista, SS and pitcher is U-G-L-Y against right-handers. Way too many easy innings for the opposing pitcher.


I agree with you here Bucfan. If we see this I'm sure NH does too. That's why I expect him to get another catcher in here if Doumit is out for an extended period of time.


Paulino had a nice double last night and had a nice double deep against Atlanta Saturday...I think he's starting to come around, hes hitting it to the gap opposite field, something he did when he is hitting well...
plus his defense has been better this season too...

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:08 pm 
nad69dan wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
But having the bottom of the lineup consist of Paulino, Bautista, SS and pitcher is U-G-L-Y against right-handers. Way too many easy innings for the opposing pitcher.


I agree with you here Bucfan. If we see this I'm sure NH does too. That's why I expect him to get another catcher in here if Doumit is out for an extended period of time.


Paulino had a nice double last night and had a nice double deep against Atlanta Saturday...I think he's starting to come around, hes hitting it to the gap opposite field, something he did when he is hitting well...
plus his defense has been better this season too...


I agree, but I think he feels pressured to preform when he's in there because of how Doumit is playing. With Doumit out and no threat, I'm not sure Paulino will continue to do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:10 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I agree, but I think he feels pressured to preform when he's in there because of how Doumit is playing. With Doumit out and no threat, I'm not sure Paulino will continue to do that.


You don't think the fact that Doumit stands a chance to reclaim the starting job as soon as he is healthy is a threat?

If he wants to be a starting catcher, he needs to play his ass off the next 2 weeks. I think that is plenty of motivation.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:15 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I agree, but I think he feels pressured to preform when he's in there because of how Doumit is playing. With Doumit out and no threat, I'm not sure Paulino will continue to do that.


You don't think the fact that Doumit stands a chance to reclaim the starting job as soon as he is healthy is a threat?

If he wants to be a starting catcher, he needs to play his ass off the next 2 weeks. I think that is plenty of motivation.


I can think of millions of reasons why Paulino should be trying his best, one dollar at a time!


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:29 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I disagree. As long as the team has a chance to contend -- and it does at this point -- I think management has an obligation to make this team as good as possible. I wouldn't go dealing Pearce or McCutchen, but you might find someone on the waiver wire or be able to pull of a Yates-like deal (one that doesn't involving giving up much) to get yourself another option behind the plate.

Who do you suggest they target, and what minor leaguer should they offer for him?

Quote:
A situation that sees Paulino not having to compete with anyone didn't work last year. It would be foolish to expect different results from the same situation this year.

Who was Paulino competing with when he hit .300 in 2006? If you recall, Doumit spent the better part of three months on the DL that year, and was limited to pinch hitting for much of time he was active.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:38 pm 
BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I agree, but I think he feels pressured to preform when he's in there because of how Doumit is playing. With Doumit out and no threat, I'm not sure Paulino will continue to do that.


You don't think the fact that Doumit stands a chance to reclaim the starting job as soon as he is healthy is a threat?

If he wants to be a starting catcher, he needs to play his ass off the next 2 weeks. I think that is plenty of motivation.


It could be. I hope you are right. But if it's only two weeks then I'm not worried. I'm more concerned about if Doumit is out for months with one of those lingering finger issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:40 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I disagree. As long as the team has a chance to contend -- and it does at this point -- I think management has an obligation to make this team as good as possible. I wouldn't go dealing Pearce or McCutchen, but you might find someone on the waiver wire or be able to pull of a Yates-like deal (one that doesn't involving giving up much) to get yourself another option behind the plate.

Who do you suggest they target, and what minor leaguer should they offer for him?

Quote:
A situation that sees Paulino not having to compete with anyone didn't work last year. It would be foolish to expect different results from the same situation this year.

Who was Paulino competing with when he hit .300 in 2006? If you recall, Doumit spent the better part of three months on the DL that year, and was limited to pinch hitting for much of time he was active.


In 06 he was a rookie trying to prove himself. I think that was motivation enough. It was once he "succeeded" that he turned into joggin Ronnie.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:44 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I disagree. As long as the team has a chance to contend -- and it does at this point -- I think management has an obligation to make this team as good as possible. I wouldn't go dealing Pearce or McCutchen, but you might find someone on the waiver wire or be able to pull of a Yates-like deal (one that doesn't involving giving up much) to get yourself another option behind the plate.

Who do you suggest they target, and what minor leaguer should they offer for him?

Quote:
A situation that sees Paulino not having to compete with anyone didn't work last year. It would be foolish to expect different results from the same situation this year.

Who was Paulino competing with when he hit .300 in 2006? If you recall, Doumit spent the better part of three months on the DL that year, and was limited to pinch hitting for much of time he was active.


In 06 he was a rookie trying to prove himself. I think that was motivation enough. It was once he "succeeded" that he turned into joggin Ronnie.

You think he can't wait to get back to the bench?

Who do you suggest they target, and what should they give up to get him?

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:54 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
You think he can't wait to get back to the bench?


I'm not saying that at all. I just don't like banking on a guy like Paulino if Doumit is out for an extended period of time.

sisyphus wrote:
Who do you suggest they target, and what should they give up to get him?

[/quote]

I'm not going to throw out specific names bc that proves to be nothing but a dart target on this board. But I'm saying if NH got Yates for a song, I think he could do the same kind of thing with a catcher.

Why would you be opposed to having more options behind the plate (again, all assuming Doumit is out for an extended period of time).


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:00 pm 
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You wont name any because there arent any out there worth picking up

Backup catchers are a dime a dozen and wont do anything more than what Chavez will do...

Going and trying to trade for one or pick one up isnt wise...Chavez will be alright in the backup role

plus, if you got another catcher, what happens when Doumit comes back in a few weeks?
Now you got 3 catchers taking up space on the roster...

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:12 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
You think he can't wait to get back to the bench?


I'm not saying that at all. I just don't like banking on a guy like Paulino if Doumit is out for an extended period of time.

Maybe you are now, but that isn't what you were saying before. You were saying that Paulino won't produce unless pushed, and you said it several times. Paulino is playing for a chance to be a starter. Motivation doesn't come any better than that.

Elmer wrote:
I'm not going to throw out specific names bc that proves to be nothing but a dart target on this board. But I'm saying if NH got Yates for a song, I think he could do the same kind of thing with a catcher.

Just what I expected to hear. It doesn't leave your argument with much credibility if you refuse to back it up. But it sure does let you criticize management no matter what happens, doesn't it?

Elmer wrote:
Why would you be opposed to having more options behind the plate (again, all assuming Doumit is out for an extended period of time).

I'm not. I'm opposed to giving up anything of value to add another catcher. If we get news tomorrow that Doumit's hand had to be amputated and Paulino breaks his leg, then I'll modify my position. Short of that, I'll stick with Paulino. Chavez won't get enough playing time to make any difference, and he's just like most backup catchers. Good defense, strong arm, no bat.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:13 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
You wont name any because there arent any out there worth picking up

Backup catchers are a dime a dozen and wont do anything more than what Chavez will do...

Going and trying to trade for one or pick one up isnt wise...Chavez will be alright in the backup role

plus, if you got another catcher, what happens when Doumit comes back in a few weeks?
Now you got 3 catchers taking up space on the roster...

Not only that, but you also no longer have whatever you gave up to get your third string catcher.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:45 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
You think he can't wait to get back to the bench?


I'm not saying that at all. I just don't like banking on a guy like Paulino if Doumit is out for an extended period of time.

Maybe you are now, but that isn't what you were saying before. You were saying that Paulino won't produce unless pushed, and you said it several times. Paulino is playing for a chance to be a starter. Motivation doesn't come any better than that.

Elmer wrote:
I'm not going to throw out specific names bc that proves to be nothing but a dart target on this board. But I'm saying if NH got Yates for a song, I think he could do the same kind of thing with a catcher.

Just what I expected to hear. It doesn't leave your argument with much credibility if you refuse to back it up. But it sure does let you criticize management no matter what happens, doesn't it?

Elmer wrote:
Why would you be opposed to having more options behind the plate (again, all assuming Doumit is out for an extended period of time).

I'm not. I'm opposed to giving up anything of value to add another catcher. If we get news tomorrow that Doumit's hand had to be amputated and Paulino breaks his leg, then I'll modify my position. Short of that, I'll stick with Paulino. Chavez won't get enough playing time to make any difference, and he's just like most backup catchers. Good defense, strong arm, no bat.


I did say Paulino LIKELY won't produce unless pushed, so I want to add another option should Doumit be out a while. What's wrong with that? It's not contradictory.

There are approximately 120 catchers in MLB and AAA. You're trying to say there's not anyone out there who can be got for cheap better than Chavez (for the 175th time, if Doumit is out for a long time)? Why would I post names, so you can rip anyone I say? I Know how you work.

You avoided my Yates question. If NH can do that again but at the catcher position, you would be opposed to that?

Options. The Pirates need options so they don't have to rely on Paulino.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:38 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I did say Paulino LIKELY won't produce unless pushed, so I want to add another option should Doumit be out a while. What's wrong with that? It's not contradictory.

There are approximately 120 catchers in MLB and AAA. You're trying to say there's not anyone out there who can be got for cheap better than Chavez (for the 175th time, if Doumit is out for a long time)?


First of all, eliminate all the catchers who are major league starters from your list. You won't be getting any of them cheap. You won't be getting any major league backup catchers cheap either, unless they're some other teams catch and throw guy who can't hit. We already have a catch and throw guy who can't hit named Chavez. That leaves AAA. Scratch all the catchers who are all true prospects from your list. They won't come cheap. You know what's left? A whole bunch of guys named Chavez, Maldonado, or Cota.

Besides, I'm forced to assume that there aren't any such guys out there, since you can't name any.

Quote:
Why would I post names, so you can rip anyone I say? I Know how you work.


LOL. You can't post names because there are none. None that could be had on the cheap, but are significantly better than what we already have. Or good enough to threaten Paulino, anyway.

Quote:
You avoided my Yates question. If NH can do that again but at the catcher position, you would be opposed to that?


In this particular case, yes, I am opposed to that, primarily because it isn't possible. Yates was available for a low price because he didn't make the team in Atlanta and he was out of options. They were going to lose him on waivers, so they were willing to part with him for little in return. I'm also opposed to it because Doumit will eventually be back, leaving us with three catchers, two of whom you think are worth little in a trade. I'm assuming that you think that Paulino is worth little in a trade. If you don't, then how do you suppose that some nearly worthless catcher is going to push him?

By the way, you'd better take a closer look at the way Yates is pitching. His ERA is fine, but it won't be for long if he keeps walking almost one batter per inning. If he doesn't turn things around, then the Pirates gave up too much for him.

Quote:
Options. The Pirates need options so they don't have to rely on Paulino.

They do have an option. His name is Chavez. He is exactly the sort of catcher that the Pirates can pick up on the cheap. I know that this might create a firestorm, and I've complained about Paulino plenty of times, but Ronnie Paulino is far from being the worst starting catcher in the Major Leagues. Look around at other teams, for goodness sake.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:02 pm 
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Yes the Pirates could use options at catcher with Doumit out a month, but I hope they don't give up much for one. If Paulino tanks, I would be in favor of grabbing someone from waivers. I agree a Yates-like trade would be nice, but I think that was a great move by NH - those trades aren't easy to come by.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I agree and hope they do just not at a high cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:26 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I did say Paulino LIKELY won't produce unless pushed, so I want to add another option should Doumit be out a while. What's wrong with that? It's not contradictory.

What's wrong is that you are assuming that Paulino is not being pushed. This is his opportunity to take back the starting job. I'd say that's a pretty significant push.

Elmer wrote:
There are approximately 120 catchers in MLB and AAA. You're trying to say there's not anyone out there who can be got for cheap better than Chavez (for the 175th time, if Doumit is out for a long time)? Why would I post names, so you can rip anyone I say? I Know how you work.

Coward. You're afraid of meeting the challenge because you're afraid of being criticized. It's a little satisfying to hear you say it yourself.

Elmer wrote:
You avoided my Yates question. If NH can do that again but at the catcher position, you would be opposed to that?

I would not be opposed to that. But the overwhelming likelihood is that trading for any backup catcher of value will cost more than the trade will return.

Elmer wrote:
Options. The Pirates need options so they don't have to rely on Paulino.

If those options are worse than Paulino, then I don't see how the options are beneficial, unless Paulino gets injured.

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 Post subject: Re: Batting Order
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:11 pm 
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Mayor Mystery wrote:
Yes the Pirates could use options at catcher with Doumit out a month, but I hope they don't give up much for one. If Paulino tanks, I would be in favor of grabbing someone from waivers.

Do you really think that you can get a better catcher than Paulino off of the waiver wire? I've got news for you: if the Pirates put Paulino on waivers tomorrow, almost every team in baseball will put in a claim by Friday morning.

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